Engine Repair Question

[PNewitt]

Well, Steve, I can't remember 100%, but original cam sprockets for timing gear chain sets, from the factory are nylon (or a similar material). They did this to keep the engine noise down. (for example: Know how you can hear a Chevy hipo motor sounds like it has a 6-71--from two blocks away?? Well, it's the timing chain, or timing gears).

So, by now, 39 years later, you'd be hard pressed to find one in and engine on the road. I also think they were plastic, as a kind of "planned obsolesence" thing for cars then...so, in the fall of 1971, you'd go: "Well, that 1972 Mustang does look good to me, and that '68 302 of mine is kinda old and klunky...and it won't keep time."

Another note for Arlie. To solve that grinding noise...Did you check how the pulley bolted to the water pump is aligned? If you look closely, pulleys and belts can tweak themselves, and rub on each other and make noise, until they go faster.

(I can't believe I just said that...LOL!!). Oops, I did it again!

Your pulley might be grinding on the water pump housing. Look for scrape marks.

Do I win something if I guess right?

Paul N.

 

[Mosesatm]

Yep, checked that. Also removed all the belts to make sure no accessories were turning. There is no doubt that the noise is inside the motor, and I'm pretty sure it's towards the front. Crank, cam, or timing chain.

Is it possible for the timing chain or one of the sprockets to rub on the block or for the sprockets to be slightly out of alignment with each other? If they were out of alignment wouldn't the chain pull them in line?

Keep working on it Paul. That's the kind of outside-the-box thinking it's going to take to solve this thing!

You are 100% correct about the original '68 timing gears being coated in vinyl. They were actually quite rugged, though. I got about 120K out of the set on my old GT/CS before the vinyl wore down and the chain slipped a tooth.

Well, Steve, I can't remember 100%, but original cam sprockets for timing gear chain sets, from the factory are nylon (or a similar material). They did this to keep the engine noise down. (for example: Know how you can hear a Chevy hipo motor sounds like it has a 6-71--from two blocks away?? Well, it's the timing chain, or timing gears).

So, by now, 39 years later, you'd be hard pressed to find one in and engine on the road. I also think they were plastic, as a kind of "planned obsolesence" thing for cars then...so, in the fall of 1971, you'd go: "Well, that 1972 Mustang does look good to me, and that '68 302 of mine is kinda old and klunky...and it won't keep time."

Another note for Arlie. To solve that grinding noise...Did you check how the pulley bolted to the water pump is aligned? If you look closely, pulleys and belts can tweak themselves, and rub on each other and make noise, until they go faster.

(I can't believe I just said that...LOL!!). Oops, I did it again!

Your pulley might be grinding on the water pump housing. Look for scrape marks.

Do I win something if I guess right?

Paul N.

 

[PNewitt]

Yes, you're right. The plastic-coated sprockets actually last over 100K. I lost a tooth on one once. I was extermely lucky, tried to start it (no start), and the chain broke when the car was in the garage, and not out on the road. That engine lasted 217K miles, then the block cracked.

OK. The timing chain setup "would let you know" right away if it was out of synch, because the timing would be really bad, and no matter where you set the dist., it would run rough, that is, if it would even start. If it skipped a tooth, it would run rough--like a bad Holley.

I would check the bearing on both the crank, and the cam. If you took off the pulleys and belts loosened, I think if you took hold of the dampner; see if it moves up and down, or side to side, for play in the bearing. You'd have to have room to do this--OR-- from the underside while up on the rack. This is just a guess.

Paul N.
p.s. while writing this, we just had a 4.3 earthquake. Ah! Life in California! it's a ride!!

 

[rvrtrash]

Couple of things. First, the original cam gears that I've seen haven't been "coated" in vinyl, but rather have a steel center and the teeth are
all plastic. It looks like a plastic ring gear pressed on a steel hub. At least that's the way I remember it. Second, some aftermarket chain sets are thicker than the originals (especially the double roller ones) and you have to leave the oil slinger off or it might rub on the inside of the timing chain cover. Just something else to think of.

Steve

 

[PNewitt]

That's it--you're absolutely right, Steve! I haven't seen one of those since 1982!

One more suggestion for Arlie....in our 'quest" for his problem.

I can't help but think that something wasn't re-installed right since you worked on the front end of the motor, and/or the water pump bearing is bad, gone out, or was tweaked when the belts and pulley's were installed. Over-torquing the accessories belts can do this, especially if they are not aligned right to begin with.

Was this WP a rebuilt or new? Sometimes the rebuilt parts can have "less than quality" bearings, etc. in them. I've heard screaming water pumps that look just fine, and are not broken (that drip through the bottom hole). There is this water pump bearing lubricant you can get at an auto parts store that may help, too. You dump it into the radiator water/coolant.

The Power Steering Pump can howl too. So can the alternator. Part of that can be from the mis-aligned belts, and pulleys. The off-angle puts stress on the bearings of all of the above. Then they make noise. A faster speed can reduce the noise, but it only gets worse.

Perhaps pull off one belt at a time, re-start and listen (just don't lose an ear or an eye from the spinning fan blades). By process of elimination, you just might find out what it is. It might not be the front bearing in the motor at all.

I've been so diligent about this thread, because a lot of other owners have had the same mysterious problems.

Paul.

 

[Mosesatm]

Tried that too. It made the noise before I worked on it and I recently removed all the belts and ran the engine to make sure an accessory was not the issue.

Since the noise is louder now it makes me think that the new, tighter timing chain is directly or indirectly the culprit. It must be doing more of something that the old chain also did, but to a lesser degree.

 

[PNewitt]

OK....

You know what. It just might be the lower sprocket. If you over torque the bolt to the crank, it will make the lower sprocket scrape onto the face of the block. --OR--could it be put on backwards--facing onto the block by mistake?

And--if you have a big, double roller timing chain, it might be too wide, and be scraping on the block, too. Not a lot of clearance in there.

Can you find a way to listen ONLY to the timing cover, with some sort of listening device--and isolate it?

I'm really curious now what it could be.

Paul.

 

[Mosesatm]

Took the car to a few mechanics today. One said, "Someone took out your 289 and installed a diesel." That is exactly what it sounds like.

2 guys said they are pretty sure it's the torque converter and another one voted for a piston skirt problem.

A bad torque converter would explain the sluggish take-off and it would explain why the sound doesn't speed up in synch with engine RPMs.

 

[390cs68rcode]

maybe it was the fan blade hitting the group 27 battery.













:tongue: :wink:

 

[PNewitt]

You know, Arlie, I am real sorry that this is happening to you.

As a side note, we've all experienced this--when you're (kinda) at a mechanic's "mercy" for an educated answer, and you get a smarta$$ response (as I'm sure it's worse towards women GT/CS owners).

This happens when a person has a high-profile car, and it has a problem.
So--just on your story, you don't need that kind of "advice". Dang. About eight of us wish we were there, and we'd have that puppy out of there in a flash, and apart faster than a NASCAR pit crew!

I thought you said it was "in the front". Hmmm....with everything making it's own noise, it's hard to know. What about actually going to either a Mustang Shop with mechanics, or biting the $$ bullet, and going to a real Ford Dealer to at least get an opinion?

Is there a local Mustang Club there in TX that knows of an "expert" mechanic about '68's? Who can we call for you? Let's get this fixed ASAP.

Hang in there--

Paul N.

 

[GTCSMustang]

I assume 39cs68rcode was kidding.

I'd look at pulling the transmission and running the engine while still in the car to see if it goes away without the trans. I doubt it's the motor. But I'd pull the timing chain cover first and check under there.

Scott

 

[rvrtrash]

I assume 39cs68rcode was kidding.

I'd look at pulling the transmission and running the engine while still in the car to see if it goes away without the trans. I doubt it's the motor. But I'd pull the timing chain cover first and check under there.

Scott

I wouldn't run the engine without the rear supported. I'm not even sure how you'd get it started without the tranny in to bolt the starter to.

Steve

 

[GTCSMustang]

Maybe that was a bad idea. How about put it on a stand.

 

[di81977]

I have pulled my tranny and run my engine. It might depend on the type or year or your transmission. I have a C4 and had to unbolt and leave the bellhousing on so that the starter could be used.

I had a similar situation trying to diagnose a rattle. I was sure it was the flexplate, turned out to be something else.

Good luck Arlie.

david

 

[Mosesatm]

Still looking at options. As usual, price will probably be the deciding factor.

Anyone used either of these companies or have any thoughts on going the internet route for an engine and transmission?

Looks like a C4, torque converter, and flex-plate from TCI will run around $1,400. Bolt that up to a remanufactured long block, install an intake and carb and I'm back in business, and with all new stuff, won't even get greasy!

http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com..._vid=18008&sid=1AlF2z1jsABd82T-14107510915.ab

http://www.larrysperformance.com/data/assemengines.html

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Ford/ford_c4_c6.asp

 

[rvrtrash]

Sorry Scott, my bad. I wasn't thinking outside the box. If you took the bellhousing off the tranny and mounted it back on the engine, you could start it and a jack stand on the bottom of the bellhousing would probably support the rear of the engine temporarily. Hope I didn't step on your toes. :embarass:

Steve

 

[di81977]

Arlie, check out

http://www.heartlandenginebuilders.com/

This is who I purchased my 393 stroker from via the internet. Feel free to PM me and I can give you more details about them and purchasing from a non local engine builder.

David

 

[390cs68rcode]

Arlie:

Keep in mind if you have ANY problems with a mail order/internet rebuild then you will have to ship the motor back for them to fix (I know from experience). Get it done locally.

 

[Mosesatm]

Thanks for the kind words Paul.

It's actually good that this happened because it's forced me to go out and look for a mechanic. Going to talk to a few more this weekend. Hopefully I can find one in my price range.

I think one reason I'm seeing such high prices is because the mechanics see a GT/CS and the prices automatically double. They assume our cars must be extremely valuable and that we must be loaded.

You know, Arlie, I am real sorry that this is happening to you.

Hang in there--

Paul N.

 

[case12]

Well, you know I am not a mechanic....but,

Did the stethoscope probing help narrow down where the noise is coming from? Does the engine run smooth except for the noise? Does the noise change when engaging the trans (putting it under load)? Casey