1968 Your thoughts on 2v-4v 289 conversion and whatnot...

[obwan93001]

Hi all! I have been getting back to things on my CS recently and'll post later what I've done in the past couple of months but for now I wanted to get some thoughts on converting my 2v 289 to a 4v. Being on a tight budget and seeing the bottom end is good (will be doing compression checks and such soon) I plan on installing a 4v carb and intake, 302 4v heads, C8OE-F if I can get them, have a line on a newly rebuilt pair that I might be able to pick up for under $400 so we'll see about those. I can't afford new or even used good aftermarket aluminum heads and plans have been to keep car as original/original looking as possible all along so if I can pull off the deal on the Ford 4v heads then I'll be happy. Not looking for crap my pants when I step on the throttle kind of HP out of my CS's lil 289 but a nice, noticeable gain would make me happy :grin:. I "Gunk'd" the top of the engine yesterday and will look for a VIN stamping on the back of the block to see if it's the original or not. I don't think it is but we'll see. The casting numbers off from under the starter are C5AE-6015-E w/date code of 6F21 which confirms it is a 289 block but that date code is about 1yr 9 months before my CS's build date. If it's not the original at least it's a 289 which originally came in the car so I'll likely keep it anyhow.

So anyways back to my reason for posting. I already have the following parts from the carb to the tailpipes and would like to know what some of you think of the parts and my plans:

• Autolite 4300 carb, reman, no tag
• Ford correct original spacer, used, bead blasted
• Ford 1968 correct and date correct 4v intake manifold, used
• Edelbrock Performer 1405 manual choke carb, almost new
• Edelbrock Performer 289 intake manifold, almost new
• 86-93 era Mustang GT factory stainless steel shorty type headers, used
• Magnaflow stainless steel dual exhaust system, 2.5", new

As mentioned above I have a line on a set of heads and will be picking up the necessary adapters for the carb and a round, open type of air cleaner as well and all the necessary gaskets and a 1/2" phenolic spacer for the carb.

I'm excited to finally be making some more significant progress and even found a local retired restorer that'll do the body work and paint for under $3k. He should be about ready to start on it in about a month. Yea! It won't be a $10k job but from what I've seen of his work it will look like it to a certain point. :wink:

Please let me know your thoughts, they'll be greatly appreciated!

Oscar

 

[CougarCJ]

I don't really see the need for the 302-4V cylinder heads, do your cylinder heads need a valve job?

Which Autolite 4300 carburetor do you have? Is there a part number on the tag or stamped into the side, of the base of the drivers side, front mounting bolt hole? You will want one with a 1 inch venturi, they also made them with 1-1/4 inch venturis.

 

[Mosesatm]

Scott, the 4V heads increase the compression ratio from [going from memory] 8.7 to 10.0. For some reason the 2V heads have huge compression chambers.

 

[CougarCJ]

Scott, the 4V heads increase the compression ratio from [going from memory] 8.7 to 10.0. For some reason the 2V heads have huge compression chambers.

I knew that there was a cc difference, with today's pump gas I would be inclined to keep the 8.7:1's.
Going from memory, I am pretty sure that the valves are the same size 2V to 4V?

Wouldn't the 1969 351W cylinder heads be a better bang for the buck? Those should have larger valves?

I don't have my reference materials nearby, so I can't verify.

 

[Mosesatm]

Yes, the valves are the same size. The only difference is the shape of the combustion chamber.
Of course, such a low compression ratio could handle a little supercharging.:wink:

I knew that there was a cc difference, with today's pump gas I would be inclined to keep the 8.7:1's.
Going from memory, I am pretty sure that the valves are the same size 2V to 4V?

Wouldn't the 1969 351W cylinder heads be a better bang for the buck? Those should have larger valves?

I don't have my reference materials nearby, so I can't verify.

 

[franklinair]

Personally, I would opt for the Edelbrock Performer 4BBL intake, Edelbrock 600CFM 4BBL carb w/electric choke, HiPo exhaust manifold (NOT headers), dual exhaust. For street driving & 87 octane w/ethanol gas, you'll have all the performance & sound you want.
(On the Edelbrock intake, use a die grinder and remove the "Edelbrock" name that is cast into the manifold. Paint it blue, and no one will know the difference.)

Neil

 

[Mosesatm]

Uh, Neil. I hate to be the one to tell you this but your car won't run without spark plug wires!

 

[franklinair]

What can I say? Some folks are 'show', some folks are 'go'.
One of these days I'll get it running, but in the meantime.....

Neil

 

[Midnight Special]

Uh, Neil. I hate to be the one to tell you this but your car won't run without spark plug wires!

...I see that Edelbrock 4BBL is plumbed for maximum fuel economy as well. Who needs plug wires? They only clutter up an otherwise excellent photo!

Oh, I get it now... The money Neil saved on wires & gas went toward the Performer intake and carb! Clever!!!

As for Oscar's request - I can see you guys rapidly getting him beyond his financial means. 'Don't nobody mention this thread to Rob!
;-)

 

[obwan93001]

You guys flippin' crack me up! :icon_lol:

The smaller compression chambers are why I was looking at the 302 4v C8OE-F heads. The compression chamber size on them is 53.5cc, 9.5cc smaller than the '68 289 2v heads and the '68-'70 302 2v heads. Both the intake and exhaust valves are the same size in the '68-'70 302 2v and 4v heads. The '68 289 2v head's intake valve size is 1.67" and the '68 302 4v head's intake valve is bigger at 1.78". If I want to stay w/period parts for the original look I'd go w/the '68 302 4v C8OE-F heads I'm looking at. Had thought about going the GT40 route but not sure if I'd run into any issues and as mentioned above, originality baby. I'll be replacing the valve cover gaskets on the current heads within the next few days so I'll jot down the casting info off of them at that time. My 2v intake looks to be the original as it's a '68 P/N and the date code is 3/13/68 a few weeks prior to my car's build date but I'm not sure about the heads yet until I see the date codes on them. While on the subject of orig stuff, I finally got to look for a VIN stamp on my 289 and did not find one. Now to be sure I looked at the right spot, it's an indented. flat spot directly behind the intake manifold at the top of the block close to where it mounts w/the C4's bellhousing, please correct me if I'm wrong. I looked behind the head and didn't look like the spot I'd seen a pic of somewhere on the VMF I believe but can't find it now. I cleaned it up good and even sanded the paint off and saw nothing. The date code cast into the block above the starter is 6F21, just over 1 yr and 9 months before my CS was born so it isn't the original motor. At least things were done right and they replaced it w/a 289 as it came from the factory and seeing how hard 289 blocks are to come by these days I'll keep it. I've read where there are shops boring them out .060 and racing them. I read the builders say they've never had any trouble w/any blocks blowing up and thus pretty much blow away the myth that you can only go as far as .030, .040 tops or else the walls get so thin you can hear the rod goin' at it next door. :icon_lol: My block looks like it may be a rebuild from the late '70s or early '80s from the looks of things and doubt it's been bored past .030 if even that so good to know I may have some room for future growth when I do rebuild that puppy.

So now back to things. Neil, I had read you really dig your Eddy setup and I know you know your schtuff so that was one reason I went that way and bought the Performer 1405 w/manual choke only cuz a PO had already installed a manual choke setup mounted under my dash and just not being used at the moment but all there. I found the great deal on the 1405 and Performer 289 intake and couldn't pass it up. Plus the electric choke is just one other electrical item that can fail. I have a manual choke on my XR650L motorcycle and prefer manual over the electric ones. In regards to the headers, I'd heard the factory '86-'93 ones used on the GTs were a bolt on fit and didn't interfere w/steering gear and whatnot. I thought they might flow better w/the 2.5" Magnaflow dual system I'll be installing than the HiPo exhaust manifolds would. BTW, which year HiPo manifolds are you talking about Neil? Oh, dude, Neil, you can eat a 3 course meal in your engine bay man. It is done up so nice it brings a tear to my eyes. I hope to have mine all purdy like that someday soon. I should have the paint and body work done in the next 3 months and I'll do what I can to the engine bay until I pull the engine/trans for rebuilding then I'll go to town.

You know Midnight Special, I am kinda surprised Rob hasn't chimed in yet. Weather musta been nice up there and he was out driving his 'stang. I'm certain we'll hear from him soon. Yea Midnight Special, I was thinking the same thing but thankfully I'm on a tight budget so no top of the line aluminum port matched heads for this boy just yet nor some super tweakin' intake mani or supercharger, hold on, gotta wipe some drool off. there, all good. I'd love to drop in a 428CJ motor in there but I'd just have fun killin myself so I'll stay w/what I got in my CS. Can't speak for any of my future Mustang projects tho.

Thanks for the input so far guys, more is always welcomed. Hope everyone had a great weekend!

Oscar

 

[franklinair]

Well, Oscar already has Ford & Edelbrock manifolds & carbs. So its really just a matter of opinion as to which system to use, Ford or Edelbrock. I believe the Edelbrock intake is more efficient than the Ford intake, and the Edelbrock carb is better than the 4300 carb.
I've never been a fan of headers for basically stock engines, but I do like the HiPo Ford exhaust manifolds.
If the compressions are OK, I wouldn't bother changing the heads either.
I guess I'm basically a 'stock' type, but with minor improvements versus modifications. But that's just me. (I'll never be able to convince Rob of the errors of his ways!!)

Neil

 

[obwan93001]

Well, Oscar already has Ford & Edelbrock manifolds & carbs. So its really just a matter of opinion as to which system to use, Ford or Edelbrock. I believe the Edelbrock intake is more efficient than the Ford intake, and the Edelbrock carb is better than the 4300 carb.
I've never been a fan of headers for basically stock engines, but I do like the HiPo Ford exhaust manifolds.
If the compressions are OK, I wouldn't bother changing the heads either.
I guess I'm basically a 'stock' type, but with minor improvements versus modifications. But that's just me. (I'll never be able to convince Rob of the errors of his ways!!)

Neil

Until I had done more research on the Edelbrock Performer 600cfm carb and intake I was leaning towards the Ford 4300 and intake but I kept reading and hearing about how the Edelbrock carbs are pretty much plug and play (depending on your setup of course) and once dialed in you may never need to touch it for years. I like that rather than having to tweak an old 4300 all the time. I'm sure I'll hear from those that are the exception and have had great luck w/their 4300s but my CS will have some mileage put on her and the less fussin' the better. Also had read somewhere that matching it up w/the Performer 289 intake makes it even that much more efficient. Heard that in some cases will get the same if not a little better mpg than a stock 2100. Of course you can't Fast Lane Foster it all the time. Sorry Renee, couldn't resist. :wink:

Oscar

 

[obwan93001]

Hey Neil, isn't it like 1.35a there in NC? You must be a night owl like me, hoo hoo. I usually catch my second wind around 11.30p and can be up for a few hours past that.

 

[Midnight Special]

.......... Of course you can't Fast Lane Foster it all the time. Sorry Renee, couldn't resist. :wink:

Oscar

Speaking of "Fast Lane Foster", Drop a PM or with hope, "PFslim" will chime in here... Renee has one of the quickest and most responsive (stock looking) small blocks I have ever had the privilege to drive. Paul Stevenson had told me back then what he had done during restoration, but I would rather we all hear it from him. The car has a nine-inch (3:25?) rear end t'boot. Since October when Rob and Steve played with her Holley carb, nothing I have short of the 390 will stay near it at launch! I have driven numerous 2v to 4v swap-overs, but nothing that performs like Renee's.

 

[Ruppstang]

Personally, I would opt for the Edelbrock Performer 4BBL intake, Edelbrock 600CFM 4BBL carb w/electric choke, HiPo exhaust manifold (NOT headers), dual exhaust. For street driving & 87 octane w/ethanol gas, you'll have all the performance & sound you want.
(On the Edelbrock intake, use a die grinder and remove the "Edelbrock" name that is cast into the manifold. Paint it blue, and no one will know the difference.)

Neil

Neil Marty would know the differance! but it is what Oscar thinks that matters.
Oscar if you would choose to stay with the Ford 4v intake I would not use the autolite 4300. The 4100 was a much better carb. I have had one on my car for 8 years and have not had to touch it. I am not a big fan of headers either I would also suggest the hipo exhaust manifolds. I am a MCA gold card judge so it is hard for me to go to far from stock. You need to talk with Rob for the dark side. Best of luck with your project. Marty

 

[CougarCJ]

Neil Marty would know the differance! but it is what Oscar thinks that matters.
Oscar if you would choose to stay with the Ford 4v intake I would not use the autolite 4300. The 4100 was a much better carb. I have had one on my car for 8 years and have not had to touch it. I am not a big fan of headers either I would also suggest the hipo exhaust manifolds. I am a MCA gold card judge so it is hard for me to go to far from stock. You need to talk with Rob for the dark side. Best of luck with your project. Marty

Yes! Yes! to everything. This is a pix of the J code engine in my 1968 XR7.

 

[Midnight Special]

Neil Marty would know the differance! but it is what Oscar thinks that matters.
Oscar if you would choose to stay with the Ford 4v intake I would not use the autolite 4300. The 4100 was a much better carb. I have had one on my car for 8 years and have not had to touch it. I am not a big fan of headers either I would also suggest the hipo exhaust manifolds. I am a MCA gold card judge so it is hard for me to go to far from stock. You need to talk with Rob for the dark side. Best of luck with your project. Marty

I personally agree and respect everything you say Marty, but I try to keep in mind that Ford did many great things to "individualize" these cars for their buyers (with all the options). Some owners did many more to enhance those options (even in the late '60's).

Yes, there are clearly two sides... One suggests you join a peer club and go all out to make your car precisely the way it was before it left the factory... Huge investment, tons of hours and research from often vague and developing resources, fear of driving and ultimately buying a truck and trailer to cart it across the country in search of acceptance...

The other suggests you do with your car what the original buyers did in the first place... Drive it and maintain it, but be free to capitalize on the same technology that led eventually into the Mustangs of today (performance, safety etc...), thus keeping those classic lines on the road for the masses to pay your acceptance...

I don't believe one side is darker than the other.

 

[Mosesatm]

Tim, I'm pretty sure Marty's 'dark side' comment was meant in jest! In fact, Rob will probably admit to being the overlord of the GT/CS dark side!!!

 

[franklinair]

AND, because Rob likes dark beer.

Neil:wink:

 

[Ruppstang]

Sorry no harm intended I was hoping to provoke a comment out of Rob. I think he is working on a dozy watch out!! But seriously everyone needs to build our restore there car for them self. Do what ever you do with all the passion in your soul. Marty