1968 Oil pressure ???

[daveS]

I just picked up a 68 GT/CS (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0322930288&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

I took it to Mustang Ranch in San Jose CA to get a tune up and they are telling me the car has some metal shavings in the oil pan and low oil pressure. They are telling me the motor is shot and needs crank bearings. However, the guy I bought it from is a mechanic, he checked everything out including the compression and it seemed ok. The engine feels stong and doesn't smoke...seems to run good. Any thoughts here ? What is normal oil pressure for these engines ? ...he is saying its down at about 20 psi. Wondering what to do here.
Thanks
-Dave

 

[tomcwarren]

Nice looking car, Dave! Good buy.

Low oil pressure can be due to many things: viscosity of oil used, leakage where the pump mounts to the engine block, looser clearances in the main/rod bearings, etc. Pressure should come up as the engine revs - usually you'd expect 10 psi per 1000 RPM.

How did they find the metal shavings in the oil pan? You usually don't remove the pan for a tune-up, and few people sift through the old engine oil looking for metal on a normal oil change, unless they're looking for trouble. Pretty thorough shop if that's the case. :grin:

The only way to know for sure is to pull the crank/main bearings/rod bearings, but I think that's a last measure. You may want to just change the oil, watch the pressure, and drive it for awhile. If the crank bearings/rod bearings go, you can rebuild it then.

HTH,

Tom

 

[Midnight Special]

...Was the engine overhauled as part of the restoration? If so, there could be a small amount of "break in" shavings in the pan. I mean small..., but if its making metal and low oil pressure, I'd pull it down. True - compression can still be good and performance outstanding, but worn, loose & otherwise bad main bearings will show these symptoms and may sieze or damage your engine down the road. Oil pressure can vary depending on many things, but 20 psi does seem low. What rpm range was it checked? A 289 4v car I have with an honest gauge reads approx 40-50 cold and around 35-40 at speed using 15/50...

 

[tomcwarren]

Note that it won't smoke if the bearings are bad, nor will the compression be down. That's only going to happen if the rings/valves are bad. So those tests don't really have any bearing wink on the crank/rod bearing fitness.

 

[franklinair]

The book says oil pressure @ 2,000RPM= 35 to 60 PSI (page 8-127). My fresh O/H'd 302 read 60 PSI on the first run-up.
Metal shavings in the oil pan warrants further checking. Did you cut the oil filter open and look at it?
Get a second opinion on the engine. How many miles on it?
Not to cast aspersions, but the seller may not be totally objective.
The VIN is not in our registry, so the owner may not have been a member of our site.

Neil

 

[tomcwarren]

Neil's point about looking in the oil filter is a great idea.

A good mechanic can also pull the pan and pop a couple of main bearings and a rod bearing or two and see if they look normal. That way you don't have to pull the engine completely. If it looks bad, then you go for the rebuild. If it looks OK, you can button it back up and refill it w/oil and put a few hundred miles on it and then recheck for shavings/debris.

Tom

 

[Midnight Special]

...All very good advice another thing I've sometimes done is drain (change) oil across some bar magnets and run the magnet across & through the pan of oil to help evaluate. Minuute sludge is one thing, but metal chips are another...

 

[daveS]

GUys,
I just got back from the mechanic about an hour ago (went at lunch time). I think I some of you were on the same path of deduction as me because I asked them to pull the oil pan. There was a bit of sediment in the bottom of the pan, and the oil had some silver swirls in it... no serious metal chips that I could see. They popped off a main bearing quickly but not a rod bearing....the main bearing looked copper/brass in color with some slight grooves worn in it....they told me this is not a good sign. The crank had a bit of where in the same area...not as bad as the bearing surface. Also, they claimed the timing chain was a bit loose and added the the "tiredness" of the motor. I told them I don't have the $$ to do a full rebuild or new motor right now, so they suggested I put in a high volume oil pump to get me through the rest of my putting around surface streets on the weekends until I have saved up for a rebuild or new motor. I wont be driving the car much for now because I'm worried about it seizing up or something....but is there are realistic chance this sucker could actually seize on me ? Seeing as I just plunked down the $$ to buy the car, I can't really do a motor yet. I'm frustrated that I am finding this out now, after I bought the car, but live and learn. I was not hearing any low end knocks and the engine felt pretty smooth when I test drove it. I want to keep it stock when I re-do the motor, but they are suggesting a 5.0 liter engine replacement to up the fun factor. He also told me that modern engine oil has no zinc in it and the old motors need zinc additives in the oil to lubricate properly (never heard about this). So anyway, they are quoting me around $5k-6K for this 5 liter enginer, but I wonder how much it would be to just rebuild the existing motor ? ...I'd like to keep the car stock or at least have the stock parts stored away and stay with the car. Not the happiest day for me to say the least, but its still a very cool 68 GT/CS !
-Dave

 

[Midnight Special]

Dave - very sorry to hear of this and I know how you feel! It's anyone's guess what may or may not happen if you drive it much. Usually low oil pressure shows up in form of a noisy valve train as a warning.

I would only add that depending on where you are and resources, a complete rebuild of your engine shouldn't be more than around $1,200 to $1,500.

 

[tomcwarren]

Note that you already have a 5 liter (302 cid = 4.94 liters). Maybe they meant a modern modular engine? Not needed. Just rebuild yours when it's time.

Slight markings in the bearing, no chips in the oil (where did the shop see the metal shavings? Did they show 'em to you?), no knocking, etc. make me think this engine might be sound. You may be dealing w/a shop that's trying to generate a little extra revenue doing unnecessary work - what's their reputation?

I'd button it back up (make sure you see the mechanic torque the main bearing cap correctly!), use a heavier oil, and drive it awhile. In the meantime, you can marshall your resources for a rebuild, while getting a 2nd or 3rd opinion on the engine.

Good luck,

Tom

 

[franklinair]

Tim's right. A re-buid for your engine would be the way to go - especially if you want to keep the engine basically stock, not to mention matching #'s.
30 PSI IS low oil pressure, and I would be hesitant about any extensive driving. Did you put a direct reading gage @ the oil pressure transmitter location? That pressure may be OK at idle RPM, but any increase in RPM should bump the pressure up to 40+. Keep us posted.

Neil

 

[daveS]

Tim,
Thanks for the kind words. I don't hear a noisy valvetrain. There was an exhaust leak but that was the only strange noise I heard from the engine. The flowmasters kind of make the car a bit louder and its harder to hear the engine...but I really didnt hear anything "funny".I did feel that the engine was a tad more sluggish than I expected but I just figured it was a heavy car with bone stock 302 + stock 4bbl...really sort of designed to be a family car or commuter at the time and not a hot rod. For what it is worth, I am in San Jose California. I have the car at a mechanics shop called "Mustang Ranch" in Santa Clara. They work on a lot of Mustangs, Shelbys, etc....I don't know much about them other than I have heard they are expensive (which I think is true). I sure hope it doesnt seize...I'll drive is like a grandma until I can get her rebuilt. $1200-$1300 for a rebuild ? Really ? Wow...I might be able to do that sooner than I though if that is the case. (P.S. I was at a Mustang Show last month and a participant from Grass Valley told me there was a guy who lived in Grass Valley that had something on the order of 12-13 California Specials....is that you ?)

Tom,
Thanks for the tip on the 5 liter...yes I think they were talking about a modern modular engine. I'd much rather just have mine rebuilt and put back in the car. Like I mentioned, sliver swirls in the oil, sediment in the pan, slightly loose timing chain but no weird noises and no big chucks of metal shavings (a few tiny ones). I suggested to them to use a heavier or more viscous oil instead of 10/40 and they mentioned 20/50. Like you said, I'll drive it for a while and get a couple more opinions. Again, they are putting in a high volume oil pump.

Thanks guys...keep the comments coming...I'm new to this so I really appreciate the input !

Cheers
-Dave

 

[green56]

I had the same problem ibought this gt/cs from this party thay showed me all the paper work that was done on the car one was the engine was rebuilt totally . after 1 year decided to adjust the valves and found that they ground down the rockers put the wrong valves and ground them down also check the seats bad needed another set of heads then the rings were bad in two cyl so new rings in all then went to crankshaft that was out of round we put in a new one .then check out cam well put in a new one put new timming chain and this person said that it was all rebuilt e mailed him to tell him to go back to the person who built the engine never returned my email so knowi do not trust any body anymor

 

[mechanicalguy48]

I guess I will weigh in too ,,,, lol. The shop is there to sell parts and pieces and labor, so they seldom tell you your motor is fine. I wish you had taken a pic of the main bearing because it sounds as if it had worn thru the babbit, thats a bad sign but it probably means failure is still awhile off(if they put it back together right). As for the shavings I wouldnt put a lot of stock in that either way. As for $5 to 6 thousand thats bullpucky. All you really need is a short block and those are plentiful. I am an old geezer and I could have that engine out in about 4 hours, slap the new short block on, look and see how the old heads are and if they appear ok , slap it together and have it back in by the next day running just fine. A short block costs from $600(cheap ones) to about $1500(high quality stuff) and the labor isnt too much for the weekend mechanic in my opinion. Not much of a catastrophe at all Dave, heck I got the parts in my garage, because I always assume a mustang I buy needs at least a shortblock,,,lol. I dont see it as someone trying to cheat you, these things happen, just put another round in the chamber and fire away. Putting it all together will be a great experience for you. Of you were close I'd help ya,,, it wont take long and your nice looking special will be back driving good.

 

[Midnight Special]

Dave, although not inherent, your 302 4v may also be sluggish for a lot of reasons...timing...carbueration...dirty air filter, etc... Believe me, a properly tuned J-code is a real performer! Also, I had a 351W in a Mach I with 196K miles, sloppy mains and hardly any oil pressure, but was strong as hell! The top end would "clack" intermittently on the highway, so I found another (from a smashed Cougar) for a song! On the day I did the swap - I floored it up our long driveway not caring if it were to blow. The 200' strip of rubber was visible for over two years!! As the others say, get multiple opinions and some tuning assistance from those who know and are as passionate. Don't just toss $$ at it... and you will learn so much!

As for Grass Valley. I believe the total number of GT/CS cars here may be 12 or so. I have six Specials, three Machs. one CS clone and one std. '68 coupe. Here's a link to photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12609305@N08/sets/72157601820367373/

There are a few more original owners and other enthusiasts concentrated here as well...

P.S. I know a Ford engine guy in Chico, CA who will rebuild you a heck of a motor for $1,200. 40-years experience, loves Fords and a shop to kill for! Let me know if you're interested and I'll PM you his phone #. He's done three motors for my sons & I......Top notch!

 

[daveS]

Hey Tim,

Well they are supposed to be doing a tune up (timing, plugs, dist cap), checking the carb & air filter, etc. as well. I'll be getting her back tomorrow and see how she runs.

As for you collection...WOW. You really do the GT/CS justice. I am loving the black one with gold stripes the most...the green one a close second. I'd love to get my hands on some of those shelby wheels !

Looks like you have a 69 red Mach 1 in there too. My best friend in high school had one of those...same red color with black accents...had a 351 windsor...kind of worn but all original and a bas ass car...fast ! We used to take it up to the little local airport where he worked (in Santa Ynez) and put 100 octane airplane fuel in it, and haul ass down the taxi way. Good times. He now lives in Grass Valley too but no longer has the car.

I might seriously take you up on the contact info for the guy in Chico. Even if I had to have to car shipped there it would be much more economical to have him do it for that price and certanly a good referal from this forum.

Cheers
-Dave

 

[Midnight Special]

Dave, I will PM his number to you. Tell him I sent you. The $1,200 is for complete long block rebuild, but would not include labor for removing and installing the engine and accessories. Do call him however....and have a chair handy as he will share everything you need to know openly. Hopefully, the tune up and servicing will give you many more hours of driving for the time being. Those small-blocks are pretty bullet proof when cared for properly (and often when not;-)

Yes, I still have the '69 Mach w/ 351 Windsor I graduated high school with in 1979. Aside from many victorious speed contests (back & forth to Sacramento to visit GF), I raised 3 kids with it as well as daily transport for almost 20 years! She awaits total restoration with vitually everything loose as a goose ;-)

Funny, but I too had a friend who worked at an airport w/ access to 100 octane. We fueled my rather nasty looking S-code GT/CS during 1978/ 79 for weekend play in the valley (see pic). Such great memories!

The red '69 is also an S-code, but has a 428CJ and shaker hood from a '70 now...

 

[Sarge]

Dave,
Having owned a C/S while living in Milpitas for 5+ years, and having dealt with the Mustang Ranch for several of those years, they are a great parts house. They are expensive for repairs, and a little "disrespectful" of C/S's. I had one C/S owner tell me that his Marchal fog lamps ended up missing after having the car in the shop for several days, but that is just what he told me. It took him several months to get the Ranch to replace them. I would have another mechanic check your car out, personally. I don't want to disrespect someone without personal cause, but good luck.

Tim, I could use your engine builder's name and number.

Robert