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Old 11/25/2009, 11:38 AM   #1
robert campbell
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Script Position

Casey,
I am sorry if this is an old topic. It has been buried in other posts, and I would like to bring it to the forefront by itself. Arlie was helping me and asked a great question on the SAAC site that will be lost in the negativity. I have asked for this information before, and it is my hope that you can do the research.

In the front and back cover of the first GT/CS Recognition Guide, and in the chapter on the debut, there are some pictures of the cars that were on the stage 15 February 1968 at the Century Plaza Hotel. They are small at best, but IMO it is easy to see that the relationship between the “recessed” reflector and the script places it noticeably higher on the quarter panel. And my guess is all debut cars had recessed reflectors. A point of reference to the later non-recessed reflectors is the relationship between the Mustang script on the trunk and the “California” script on a rear right quarter look at the cars. They are almost level to each other. That is not the case after the production started. Both scripts are noticeably lower.

My car had the script in this “higher” location when I bought it in 1989. The holes are still in my quarter panel. I moved the script down to the traditional location. Please trust me that I did not drill a bunch of holes in my car to cause controversy and justify its connection or authenticity!

Arlie asked the question that if my car was cloned later (a very real possibility) why would the holes be so similar to a debut car? If it was cloned later after the availability of GT/CS specific parts over the counter, they would have had tons of examples of the traditional location.

I know you cannot quickly answer any of the above. Long ago before all the negativity, I asked for some help here and was denied. Wait for the book was the answer. IMO this is a critical part of the GT/CS legacy that may be in the book or not. We are bared from that information. Whether it is just in reference to the debut cars, forget mine.

Tim made the photo shop rendition of my right rear quarter panel based on measurements I provided him from my higher holes. I am about ready to sand down the quarter panel to reveal the holes from the outside for all to see!

Anyway, maybe you have access to some better or bigger pictures of the debut cars. I do not for sure. IMO this needs to be settled before the book goes to print.

Rob

Traditional location



Debut Location

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Old 11/25/2009, 04:07 PM   #2
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Rob, I want to help with this.

First I will check the blueprints and see if there is anything there. Will let you know.

I dont have any better pictures of the debut, but will check into it.

Kevin Marti has made it clear to me that there were no GNS GT/CS's - I asked him to check on this very specific point, which he did. Kevin is a pretty straight shooter, so his view is as good as his data....

Kevin Marti also has no data on the debut cars. I asked him to check on this very specific point. So, they remain a mystery as to which ones are out there.

The script location is certainly one item to look for, but if script was added by a dealer later, they could have placed it in a different place. So, that alone is not definitive. (Some people on this site have cars with the California and Special reverse on one side of their car - a resto mistake....but no one really notices, so they have been left this way)

I have only heard from Paul about the debut cars being decked out with tachs. I have talked to Lee Grey myself, but never asked him that question. That would certainly be another indicator.

The color is the mystery to me - If other items could line up, it would seem to make the most sense that someone took a couple of debut cars and had them repainted to a gold color - maybe a dealer looking to leverage the GNS color. But havent you noted that the color was original?? If it appeared like a repaint color, we might have something??

Just curious - does your scoops have the witness lines - it doesnt prove much, except there were likely originals (I have one of each ).

Casey

1968 GT/CS on cover and featured article, "Gold Rush", in Mustang Times, February 2006
1966 Convertible featured article, "Sweet '66' ", in Mustang Times, January 2008
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Old 11/25/2009, 04:56 PM   #3
robert campbell
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Casey,
Again thank you for taking a sincere interest in this miniscule piece of GT/CS history. I agree that there is no such thing as a GT/CS/GNS combination. A thought early on but gone now.

I too have seen the backward scripts. I think we have a thread on our site on them. But the similarity in the height of my cars script and the debut car pics (albeit very small pictures I am looking at) is IMO to close to ignore. Again I am not for a second saying this car is a debut car!!!!

My car did not come with a tach, but again it is not a debut car.

I had the car to metal. The original color was a gold of some kind. The original color still exists under the carpet near the doorsills. Sunlit, Anniversary?? I feel it is darker than hues I have seen today that are Sunlit as your car is. But without a side by side comparison, wow I can't tell you. The only reason the color anniversary gold was brought up was due to multiple mentions in the first GT/CS recognition guide. But I still have areas with the original color that have seen nearly no light of day! But to take a picture, to many variables exist. Suppose I could get rattle cans and take one pic of samples next the areas on my floor?

The left quarter panel of this car was poorly replaced when I bought the car in 1989. The left side scoop is a Tony Branda repop with no witness line. I replaced the complete left quarter myself in 1989 all the way up into the c pillar and the complete door jam with a good used quarter with a recess reflector. Very hard to find. Also the left outside wheel house. The right side scoop has the witness line and is a genuine GT/CS scoop. The trunk lid, endcaps, and tail light panel are factory GT/CS pieces and the original paint on them was gold. The wiring harness to the taillights is original and uncut with the exception of some protective covers I put on hear the taillights. I also added individual ground wires soldered to each socket to enhance the ground circuit

The right quarter panel, which has the holes for the higher script, is original and the date codes faithful to the rest of the car. It has a lower patch I put in and new extensions from the trunk area down to the bottom of the area the quarter attaches to

Casey thanks again! You are a sincere custodian of the GT/CS history. And that is not a jab at anyone else. You have always been a firm voice of reason in all of the "stuff" that I certainly have had a major hand in creating.

Rob
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Old 11/25/2009, 06:30 PM   #4
CougarCJ
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Couple questions Rob.

Do your tail light bezels have the black painted trim on them or are they sans black paint?

Do your tail lights have the 6 stamped steel dimpled protectors?

On your tail light panel, were the cutouts done cleanly or rough and jagged? for the 1965 Thunderbird tail lights.

Scott Behncke
1968 GT/CS 302-4V Honors flysis income beezis onches nobis inob keesis
West Coast Classic Cougar A good source for Mustang mechanical parts too.
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Old 11/25/2009, 07:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CougarCJ View Post
Couple questions Rob.

Do your tail light bezels have the black painted trim on them or are they sans black paint?

Do your tail lights have the 6 stamped steel dimpled protectors?

On your tail light panel, were the cutouts done cleanly or rough and jagged? for the 1965 Thunderbird tail lights.
#1= no black paint anymore (steel-wooled paint off) #2= yes, sir #3= somewhat rough and jagged. Bob here!
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Old 11/25/2009, 07:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by hicountrybob View Post
#1= no black paint anymore (steel-wooled paint off) #2= yes, sir #3= somewhat rough and jagged. Bob here!
Opps!!! sorry ,Rob, didn't notice the post was for you. Bob here.
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Old 11/25/2009, 07:34 PM   #7
robert campbell
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Bob,
No Prob here!! Any help is appreciated.

Scott,

No paint at all on very old, pitted, tail light bezels. Just replaced them with new repops, but still have the old ones

All stamp steel protectors in place.

Holes for taillight assembly are jagged. Of note, both ribs that separate the orginal taillights are removed. Normally only one is gone. But I have seen pictures where both were cut away. Also they were crudely cut. As was the hole for the center stud for the side scoop on the right side, which is the only orginal quarter panel on the car. Just like any normal GT/CS.

Rob
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Old 11/26/2009, 05:32 AM   #8
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Here is the blueprint of the back tail light plate covering (for those who like to decipher engineering drafting). I have a side view as well. Also have one for the "nipple" plates.

Again, I dont know how much this helps, unless there are major differences on what you have and this BP.

As for the script - the blueprint I have is of the script itself and not the placement. As for me, it is a mystery as to documentation on the placement of the script, but I will keep looking - I have some other stuff.

Casey
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1968 GT/CS on cover and featured article, "Gold Rush", in Mustang Times, February 2006
1966 Convertible featured article, "Sweet '66' ", in Mustang Times, January 2008
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Old 11/26/2009, 10:00 AM   #9
robert campbell
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Casey,
That of course is the outside plate designed to cover the "old" taillight hole on each side. The hole is for the taillight harness to pass through. Then there are four smaller plates for the inboard protrusions from the Thunderbird taillight assembly. A total of six pieces. All six are perfect and installed on my car and perfect match to any car I have seen. I removed them in 1989 during my mini restoration of it. IMO their purpose was to preserve the integrity of the trunk to keep exhaust fumes out. I used a black strip line caulking when I installed them back during final assembly after the repaint.

By the way, neat blueprint! I was a sheetmetal guy by trade and have read thousands of blueprints. If you ever have the large piece in you hand it is very crude. Almost like Ford did not make it??? After the pressing process to achieve the “dimple” you can see the plate is no longer square due to metal shrinkage from the extrusion process. Especially noticeably in the four small plates.

By the way, in my life with Mustangs I stumbled on to the back half of a 1968 Mustang coupe. It was cut in half and the complete dash and half the roof and floor gone. But it had these plates in the back. My guess is it was a GT/CS (or gee yet another clone). The plates are identical to mine and I have them if someone needs them.

I am confident that if my car is a clone, someone who had an example in front of them or thorough knowledge of the cars did it. If these parts came from ONE wrecked GT/CS it would have to have been “surgically” hit to not damage any of the parts. Marchal’s also date it a bit older than the normal. If a dealer did it, it was done down to the last part. And these parts IMO would have not been available until after the big push to fill the orders. The wiring harness is there, uncut, as I have said. Even the little bracket to hold the fog light breaker! And this car was not a GT car as confirmed by Marti. So it should not have this bracket? Someone knew to put that in? Must have had a doner car or complete example right next to it! If they went to this detail back in the 1970’s or late 1960’s they must have thought it was as valuable as a GT-40 or Shelby. Back then…. Not! Done by a private party. Doubtful. They would have cut a corner somewhere.

Some day I will find Janice’s car. If it is a complete as this one, wow, what a mystery!

HAPPY TURKEY DAY, ALL!!!!

Rob
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Old 11/26/2009, 10:19 AM   #10
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So what happened to the original owner of your car Rob? Can anybody find them?

RHONDA
GT/CS FOREVER!
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Old 11/26/2009, 11:08 AM   #11
robert campbell
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Rhonda,
Bruce Malmberg registered it as a GT/CS in the early 1980's. It is in both recognition guides. That really means nothing in the new world of Marti reporting. I plan to do a title search to see if I can trace it back any further. Hopefully if I get a name or address it may lead to a contact who can shed some light.

Rob
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Old 11/26/2009, 11:31 AM   #12
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I think that would be the best way to go. Have you been able to contact anyone from the dealer that sold it? Someone may remember it.
Also, could the gold color on your car be "spanish gold"? That was a color they used for the "Rainbow of Colors" special Mustang in 1968 and 1969.

RHONDA
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Old 11/26/2009, 12:50 PM   #13
robert campbell
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Rhonda,
Got in contact with the old sales manager of Smith Gandy Ford. These guys were pushing cars, so their memory does not go that deep. He remembered the dealer code. Says the one on my Marti report is incorrect for Smith Gandy Ford. So, now I am unsure if the dealer is correct, so now I an unsure if it came form Smith Gandy Ford....

Rob
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Old 11/26/2009, 04:57 PM   #14
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Hey Rob, my Boss was originally sold to Smith Gandy, but then sold to a customer through Foothills Ford in Bellevue. (If you ever stumble on any spare original license plate frames from either, grab them for me.) My Deluxe Marti shows a dealer code of 74A 004 for Smith Gandy (and 74A 020 for Foothills), in case they changed their code and the salesman remembers the later one.

Steve

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Old 11/26/2009, 05:10 PM   #15
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Rob, Someone better throw you a life vest before you get sucked into the black hole of mystery your car is headed for. LOL
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