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Old 03/07/2008, 04:00 PM   #1
heliaster
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Trashed 289 - now what?

Ok, so here's my situation. I bought a C-code GT/CS under the impression that it was a rebuildable block. Turns out it has already been bored to 60 over, and the rust in the cylinders would put it beyond the 80 over max bore that's safe on a 289. So my nice neat original block is kaput.

Now comes the advice. The way I see it, I have 2 options:
1. Find a date correct 289 to keep the car as factory as possible
2. Bump the beast up to a bigger (I'm thinking 351) block, more kick in the pants type set-up

It is a factory 4 spd, 3.00 locking differential, car so it has some of the performance upgrades to make it desirable. I tend to lean towards factory, but that's typically in regards to keeping a car original, now that I have the choice, I'm waffling.

I know ultimately it boils down to being my decision, but I would like to hear some feedback from you guys, who have a lot more knowledge on options, the market, desirability, etc.

-Zac

Last edited by heliaster; 03/07/2008 at 04:30 PM..
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Old 03/07/2008, 04:29 PM   #2
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Heliaster,

You bring up an interesting question. Once you don't have a "numbers matching" engine, does getting a 289 that's of the right vintage add more value (to you) than going down the 351 and/or stroked 289/302 road? With the cost of a crate motor...short block or long block, you'd have to do the math and decide A) keep it original looking as possible...which a 302 stroked to 331 or 347 (or just a crate 302) will do ...or put a bigger block in it...which would also be a kick. Either way, I think you have a fun project to look forward to.

Jeff Miller-
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Old 03/07/2008, 05:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heliaster View Post
Now comes the advice. The way I see it, I have 2 options:
1. Find a date correct 289 to keep the car as factory as possible
2. Bump the beast up to a bigger (I'm thinking 351) block, more kick in the pants type set-up

-Zac

Option 3: Have the block sleeved.

If you decide to buy another engine instead, go with a 302 (or 351) instead of a 289. They are a lot more common with more power. PLEASE hang onto your original block though. It can be saved and once the original one is gone, it can never be replaced. Someday you may wish you had it.

Steve

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Old 03/07/2008, 06:18 PM   #4
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If you want to stay original, and there's a GOOD engine shop available, then I would agree with having the cylinders sleeved to keep the "numbers matching concept". But in all candor, a strong 302 (4bbl, mild cam, headers) coupled to your 4 speed would be a kick.
Unless you're going concourse, the numbers matching concept can be easily outweighed by performance. As you said - you have to decide.

Neil
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Old 03/07/2008, 06:55 PM   #5
Midnight Special
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...Upon studying your gallery. it appears as tho you're keeping everything else as original as possible. Keep up the good work :-)

I am a total fan of the 351 Windsor, but for some reason I've never been impressed with seeing them put into '68s. My first impression re; marketability (having just looked at one) was; "alright - what else has been done to this thing?... Was it already hot rodded to hell & back, even tho pretty? etc..."

But heck; unless you're going to trailer it everywhere and show it - make it as fun & appealing to YOU as possible! The Windsor is a strong & reliable motor with a wide torque range that just keeps on pullin'! If someone were to jump you on the freeway at about 40 - you won't even have to gear down ;-)

Tim
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Old 03/07/2008, 08:43 PM   #6
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Hmmm.. I went the other way. I bought my project C-code C/S with a 351W that turned out to be totally hooped. So I think I will go back to the 289 - if I find a correct date code engine then great, but I'm not too bothered by it. My attitude is "this car is for me". If the 351W would ahve been OK then I was prepared to keep it in the car. That FMX tranny had to go though!

Gary

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Old 03/07/2008, 09:08 PM   #7
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I think this situation begs the question: How would a non-stock (and/or non original) engine affect the value of a C or J code GT/CS?

I've known of '68 GT-500 Shelbys that had dealer-installed 427 side oilers, that improved their value--but that is an extreme example...

Roughly 85% of the GT/CS production was 289 or 302s. After 40 years, this still the most common version of the GT/CS. I've suggested that people go wit hthe 347 option for their upgrade, so the performance matches the looks (and you can still look pretty much stock under the hood).

The thing about the GT/CS is that the rest of the car looks so hot, it begs for more HP. I can understand and appreciate the stock-appearance idea, but I would go the 347 route, and keep it looking "right", with the HP of a 351. Tims' point is well taken--if you have one thing that looks modified (i.e. a 351W), "what else was done, and how thrashed could this car really be?" (to a potential buyer down the road).

Casey Hill (Case12) did a 347, and it turned out quite nice. It's got stock roots, and the dress up kit makes it all the better.....it looks like it belongs in there.

You might think about gas mileage, too; although most today drive theirs "on Sunday only" (according to my flier's survey).

I'd keep the original block, and set it aside, and go get as 347; and put the Cobra valve covers and oval air cleaner on it, along with some shorty headers, and have fun. You'll have the best of all worlds.

Paul N.
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Old 03/07/2008, 10:25 PM   #8
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Without question - sleeve it to 20 over, deck it with flat top notched pistons, port your heads and intake and use a Baja Beast cam with that 2bl and you will be smilin.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

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Old 03/07/2008, 10:41 PM   #9
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Without question - sleeve it to 20 over, deck it with flat top notched pistons, port your heads and intake and use a Baja Beast cam with that 2bl and you will be smilin.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
So...you have piqued my interest.... this is a 289 2bbl setup for maximum performance?? How would you describe this? "Cause this sounds really neat for the 289 2bbl people. You could have a stock looking small block, and then "poof' it takes off like a shot!!

I guess the trick is in the porting of the heads and (stock?) intake? What about headers--like shorty??--or do you exude-hone out the stock exhaust manifolds? and of course, dual exhaust? (that dumps down just in front of the stock non-GT valance?)

...and do you have something similar for the the 6-cylinder folks??

Hmmm.....a good "sleeper" setup. Neat.

Paul N.
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Old 03/08/2008, 10:24 AM   #10
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Heliaster,
fyi, i have verified with marti auto, there were only 75 gt/cs cars built with a 4spd trans and a locking diff. and thats with any engine, mine is a j code 4spd with locking diff. i would sleeve your 289 block and put it back as exact as your able. then if you want more ponys, i would build a completely seperate engine and stroke it to at least 4 in. any bore (289, 351) will run extremely better, and with 3:00 gears get better mileage,(if cammed right). don't thow your block away, i didn't get the matching numbers block with mine, and it's kind of a bummer.
fyi : 2008 shelby gt 500 engine: 3.552 inch bore x 4.165 stroke

jbart
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Old 03/08/2008, 11:54 AM   #11
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Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of sleeving the original - the 4 spd/V8 combo was one of the cool rare things that brought me to this car in the first place. Cost is prohibitive at this point.

I like Paul's idea of the stroker while keeping the original block tucked away in some corner of my garage for the days when I'm a super rich rockstar...or have just learned how to save some money, whatever ends up being easier. Keeping an original appearance and always having the option to go back to true factory would be nice.

Thanks again, I'm off to (hopefully) pick up my new T-10 -whoops I meant toploader - don't know what I was thinking. Which was successful by the way!

-Zac

Last edited by heliaster; 03/08/2008 at 06:18 PM..
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Old 03/08/2008, 12:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBART View Post
Heliaster,
fyi, i have verified with marti auto, there were only 75 gt/cs cars built with a 4spd trans and a locking diff. and thats with any engine, mine is a j code 4spd with locking diff. i would sleeve your 289 block and put it back as exact as your able. then if you want more ponys, i would build a completely seperate engine and stroke it to at least 4 in. any bore (289, 351) will run extremely better, and with 3:00 gears get better mileage,(if cammed right). don't thow your block away, i didn't get the matching numbers block with mine, and it's kind of a bummer.
fyi : 2008 shelby gt 500 engine: 3.552 inch bore x 4.165 stroke
JBART, stroke it to at least 4 in? on a 289/302 small block ford a 3.4" stroke is the maximum with a .030 bore gives 347 ci. i've heard of 351W being bored and stroked out to 383ci (thats a 3.7" stroke and 0.060 overbore)...but when you mentioned 4" stroke, i wondered if it was even possible on a 351...here's what i found:

We've all heard the quote "There's no replacement for displacement", so let's build our stroker as big as possible, there are kits that can take a 351W all the way to 454 cid, and bigger is better right? As with everything else, bigger is not necessarily better. There are several considerations to make when engineering the displacement of a 351W stroker, rod ratio, cylinder heads and rpm limits are just a few.

The easiest and most popular stroker combination is offset grinding a stock 351W crank to 3.7" stroke, with a .030 over bore you've got 377 cid and with a .060 overbore you're at 383 cid. Eagle makes a high quality, affordable steel rod that works very well in this application. It is 6.200" long and features Chevy small block journals. Using this rod gives a very favorable 1.68 rod ratio and is just as happy revving to 6000 rpm in a mild street engine as it is at 8500 rpm in a 15:1 race engine. The rods clear the block with room to spare and no exotic crankshaft balancing is necessary.

Other popular kits offer cubic inch combinations at 408, 414, 427 and even 454. Most of these kits start with a 400M crank that is extensively modified to fit the Windsor block and feature a 4.00" to 4.25" stroke. While more cubes may sound appealing, it isn't for some applications. The primary problem is cylinder head efficiency at higher rpm's. Most small block cylinder heads were designed to be used on a 289 through 351, they weren't designed for the near big block cubic inches of a large stroked Windsor. Most don't have the port volume necessary to efficiently feed engines larger than 400 cid. So in a maximum power effort, the returns from the added cubes fall into the category of diminishing returns. Street engines are less sensitive to the high rpm airflow needs and can offer plenty of low end torque with one of the bigger strokers. Revability with 4.00" or more stroke is also a concern, the lower rod ratios and subsequent rod angles can cause excessive piston skirt wear and slapping when cold that can sometimes sound severe.

So, what you are saying is possible, but not very practical. I'm wondering why did you say at least 4in? is this because your shelby has a 4.165" stroke? that is a completely different design...you are comparing apples with oranges..unless Zac wants to go with an overhead cam, crate motor...
i saw someone selling a 2007 Shelby Motor for $14,000 and the 6 speed trans for $3200...that might add value to the california special, but its pretty custom and makes your car more of a restomod, which is fine if you're planning on keeping it forever...

my recommendation for Zac...goes with what Paul said...

from my experience (you don't need a 4" stroke)...i bored and stroked my original 289 block for 347 and modified the cast heads and bolted on aftermarket parts and it didnt do the job...i now have that block sitting in my garage....get yourself a 87-95 5.0 block...bore and stroke that to 347 (3.4" stroke)or 331 (3.25" stroke) and get yourself some $2000 aluminum heads and a big hydraulic roller cam...this would be a more practical way to have a performance engine in a car that you CAN drive on the street...if you want an engine that really revs...then don't stroke it...build yourself a 7500rpm 289 like Robert Cambell has...
just fyi...my 347 revs to a maximum 6500rpm safely....if you want 7000rpm dont get a 347 stroker....leave it as a 289 or get a 302 or get a 331
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Old 03/08/2008, 02:31 PM   #13
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Here's my 2 cents worth re: engines' O/H, Mods, Costs, ROI:
Bearing in mind that for the most part, these cars are street machines not devoted to the drag races or road courses.
As a kid, I watched my dad build engines for racing (Ford "B" blocks in the 1940's and eventually Offenhausers) until he retired from racing. I also helped friends build & modify engines from the old Ford flat heads into the modern OHV's. You can spend a ton of money doing so if your goal is high performance (acceleration/speed). And if you can afford it, that's great. Just always bear in mind that these high dollar mods never return your $$$ investment. Again, if that's not a factor, great. I've seen too many engines built that the costs far exceed their completed value. You could spend $5,000to $6,000 building a small block V-8, and no doubt you'd have a wonderful, great performing powerplant. Just don't expect to recoup your investment if/when you decide to sell.
The big blocks (390, 428, 429) are great engines, and they really pack a wallop. But as Paul noted earlier, 85% of these cars were small block (289, 302) versions. Not to mention they're a helluva lot easier to work on - try changing spark plugs in a 428 Mustang!!
I would recommend you stay with a small block whether you have your 289 sleeved & O/H'd, or get a 302 (very plentiful), and do these simple & inexpensive mods: Edelbrock 4BBL intake, 4BBL carb., mild cam, hi-po exhaust manifolds (NOT headers). This engine, coupled with your manual tranny will give you WAY more than you'll ever want or need to use on the streets. And it's affordable ($1,000+/-). Good luck, whichever path you choose.

Neil Hoppe

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Old 03/08/2008, 05:26 PM   #14
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Paul yes - you can acheave the same 185 intake 145 exhaust flow rate at 500lift advertised by aluminum heads by porting your intake, heads and exhaust manifolds. The Baja Beast has a very mild idel, 112 lobe good vac, but will pull a stump with 2.79 gears. That white cloud of smoke guys acheive with their foot on the brake....you wont need to brake. Stoplight Grand Prix

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Old 03/08/2008, 05:45 PM   #15
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But again, my point. How much for aluminum heads + porting? Is smoking the tires a pre-requisite? ($$$) (ROI) (Streetability) Too radical for practicality.
Keep it simple & affordable, and still achieve more than stock performance.

Neil

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