Most Recent Issue of "Musangs and Fords"

I received my latest issue of "Mustangs and Fords" magazine and noted that Jeff Ford, editor of M&F, wrote an article about the value of Ford cars from 1955-79.

It was interesting to note the high value placed on GT/CS cars in relation to other Mustangs.

A car is rated fair, good or excellent, with criteria for judging the condition of the car. The price breakdown for GT/CS cars are: fair, $7475, good $11,500, excellent $18,400. Add between $500-825 for air conditioning and more for specific engine options (the bigger the engine the more value.

HCS Mustangs do well also, but have a lower value than a GT/CS (something that has been discussed on this forum). I only mention this price guide because people want to know what their cars are worth, and when a value guide is printed in a national magazine, the prices identified become the "standard" for prices in the future.

Re:Most Recent Issue of "Mustangs and Fords"

Sure wish I could spell "Mustang"!!!

In my opinion those prices are a bit inflated -- as are the values in most price guides published on a large scale. Most dealers (in general -- cars, coins, baseball cards, etc.) sell at a percentage of the value published in a major price guide. They buy at an even lower percentage of the published value. The guide that I wrote was intended to be the "real" value of the car, collector to collector. NOT dealer to collector, collector to dealer, etc. Whenever a dealer is involved, extra "fat" is there to cover the dealer's overhead costs.

With all of that said, I'm not going to throw a fit because a national publication shows high prices for the GT/CS and HCS. Not many people know much about these cars, so if they read that they're quite valueable then that will pique their interest and get the seed of rarity and desirability planted in their minds. That creates demand, which increases value if the supply is short (which it inherently is on these cars).

If you want a much more accurate (IMO) estimate of the value of a GT/CS, however, just click on the Price Guide link to your left

-Winston

Winston,
You did a great job with your price guide, and I studied it when you wrote it. My comment goes to the fact that when national publications write articles on auto values, that tends to be the price for the car, inflated or not.

I know you and I would not pay these prices, and we would refer to your price guide for "real" prices, but it is nice to see that our cars have a significant value on the national marketplace.

Russ

:-\

I think the real point to be made is that a recognized authority in the field (Jeff Ford, whom I greatly respect) published his "best market guess" in a nationally syndicated magazine known for accurate Ford information. The fact that his figures are higher than what we consider reasonable for our cars is certainly a positive note. This not only reaffirms our belief that the car is indeed collectible and rare but probably increases the market value of our cars. Not to say that the figures Winston have developed aren't accurate, on the contrary, it just means that folks "outside" the club here are also interested in these collectibles. Great for us, but not necessarily so great for the folks still considering a purchase. Thoughts?

[quote author=Russ link=board=1;threadid=476;start=0#msg2547 date=1056470337]
I know you and I would not pay these prices, and we would refer to your price guide for "real" prices, but it is nice to see that our cars have a significant value on the national marketplace.[/quote]

That's exactly my point. If you and I won't pay those prices, neither will other people. Therefore, I don't believe that those prices are a true reflection of the national marketplace. Oh, there may be the occasional guy or gal who pays too much and buys one at that price, but that's the exception. The market needs to dictate what numbers appear in a price guide, not the other way around.

The higher prices in the M&F guide do some good, however. They show that the cars have a recognized value that is significantly above a "regular" Mustang, thereby educating the community about these cars.

-Winston

I'm all for the GT/CS becoming more valuable. However, in about a year of watching eBay (among other places) and recording sale prices, I've yet to see the kind of numbers M&F published. I don't know where they got them, but I'm very skeptical of them. Jeff Ford is a standout in the field for sure, but I'm sure that he's no GT/CS expert. "Best market guess" is probably accurate, with "guess" being the operative word.

This price surge may seem to be a great thing for current owners, but it can be a double-edged sword. Unless the numbers are accurate, you could see that value drop just as quickly as it shot up -- potentially costing you a lot of heartache. If that happens, collectors could lose confidence in the actual value of the car, causing prices to drop even further and causing you to lose money. People about to buy a GT/CS could end up paying more only to have the value change a year later. I want to see the values of these cars increase steadily, not swing up and down wildly. The best way to do that is to instill purchaser confidence with consistent, accurate pricing. These cars will increase in value on their own accord, without any artificial "help" from a price guide.

I've collected all sorts of things in my (short) life, and this is just a continuation of a common thread I've seen in nationally published price guides. Take those M&F numbers with a grain of salt, is all I'm saying.

-Winston

Well, if Traderonline is any indicator of prices (asking of course) then here are some interesting ads. No less than 8 California Specials are listed for sale:

Gig Harbor, WA $19,000
Clearwater FLA $19,900
Kingsville, TX $17,500
Lake Bluff, IL $24,900
Grand Terrace, CA $16,500
Dallas, TX $18,500
Canton, Ohio $14,000
Lenexa, KS $13,500

Assuming basic statistical analysis (throw out the highest and lowest figures and determine an average) that means that the average asking price is $17,500 +/-.That being said, even a actual selling cost of 75% of that figure would be over $13,000. Are these folks that far off of the "real" mark? Didn't we have a recent member of this site pay almost $14,000 for a reasonably restored GT/CS? Hmmmmmmmm

Jeff Ford used the "Cars of Particular Interest (CPI) Value Guide" as a basis for his article, and he says that the issue he used was about three months old. I think these values are compiled from auctions and sales of vehicles.

Bottom line is that the values identified in M&F are only a guide. The real "value" of a car is what a person is going to spend to own a GT/CS or HCS. Cash money!

Russ

Supply and demand is the basis for most items.As the gt/cs gains more attention, the price will increase.As owners we should welcome the article in Mustang&Fords; we all have an investment. At some point in time we will become sellers.Wouldn't you like as much as possible? I know I would. Why try to hold down the price?Shelbys are overpriced, but that doesn't keep people from buying them.As more people come to realize the rarity, and beauty of this car the price will keep rising.Just my opinion

RE:

Gig Harbor, WA $19,000
Clearwater FLA $19,900
Kingsville, TX $17,500
Lake Bluff, IL $24,900
Grand Terrace, CA $16,500
Dallas, TX $18,500
Canton, Ohio $14,000
Lenexa, KS $13,500

...actual selling cost of 75% of that figure would be over $13,000...

I also watch prices in the AutoTrader, and I've noticed how "high" of a price these private sellers are asking. I wonder, though, how many of these cars actually sell to a private buyer and how many end up on eBay. I did a quick search on eBay and am finding #2 current completed listings:

San Diego "J" code AT sold for $9,975.75
Austin TX "C" code AT no-sale for a high bid of $8,004.89

Current listings are (the "convertible" didn't come up):

Oklahoma "J" no bids @ $10K, 4 days left
LA (possible clone) $5,207.05 NR with 2 days left.

I think looking at eBay these days is a fairly accurate reflection of the value of our cars. eBay is so well-known that, IMO, most of the "hot" deals are gone. Cars seem to only sell for a few hundred--if any at all--less than I see them sell at the collector car auctions I attend and in my local newspaper. I also very closely watch '69 Mustangs, and these all seem to sell on eBay for close to prices I see on the VMF, at auctions, and in the paper.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT my car to be worth a lot because it makes me feel less like I got fleeced in the deal, but I just don't think the magazine values or the AutoTrader asking prices are very realistic. :-(

Thanks for pulling up those numbers from eBay, Deadstang -- that's what I'm seeing, too. TraderOnline (a.k.a. AutoTrader) is little indication of actual value. The asking prices in there are very overpriced, and you don't see the actual sales price. It was mentioned that maybe the average sale price is around 75% ($13,000). With that case, I think that you'll find those values to be close to what my guide estimates.

Again, I'm not *trying* to "hold down the price." I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, and let people know that just because you see it in a national Mustang publication it doesn't mean it's right. For that matter, you don't have to believe the numbers in my guide, either. Do you own year-long research... I'm confident that you'll agree with me when it's done

-Winston

Okay, I went to the CPI website and -- lo and behold -- the text that I got (and modified slightly) for judging condition is the same on the CPI's text! Mustang Monthly must've lifted it for their 1998 Price Guide (which is where I got the text). Anyway, now we know for sure how to get on the same page regarding value.

CPI/Mustang Monthly/Mustangs & Fords "Excellent" = my "Concourse."

CPI/Mustang Monthly/Mustangs & Fords "Good" = my "Excellent."

CPI/Mustang Monthly/Mustangs & Fords "Fair" = my "Fair."

I felt that their system skipped by a condition category or two, so I added them. My categories are "Poor, Fair, Good, Excellent, and Concours." The CPI/Mustang Monthly/Mustangs & Fords categories are "Fair, Good, Excellent." As you can see, there can be quite a bit of discrepancy unless you're careful when comparing the two systems. Apples to apples, here's how my base prices compare to the new M&F base prices, using my nomenclature:


So as you can see, their prices are about $1500-$2000 higher per category, for those categories that can be matched. You'll note that I gave no value for a Concourse car (their "Excellent") because I've never seen one sold.

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the fact that the condition names might not match up between the two systems, but that the descriptions do and therefore the systems can be compared. I'm still sticking to my opinion that their prices are a bit high, though

-Winston