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Old 09/20/2003, 01:54 PM   #16
jerry119
 

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Re:project car for sale

[quote author=mrshelbydallas link=board=1;threadid=604;start=0#msg3177 date=1063933944]
The owner of the other Gt/CS ebay auction 2433097341 for $6500 failed to mention that it had been totaled in a flood. Engine is seized, spark plugs were removed years ago and engine was allowed to sit without oil. Its funny how things slip your mind when your ready for the cizzash.
[/quote]

As far as "slipping my mind" - as I already stated, it did not slip my mind. By the way, what is 'cizzash' ?
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Old 09/20/2003, 02:08 PM   #17
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Re:project car for sale

Ok, what is the deal with the 67 interior? If you plan to get what you think this vehicle is worth, you should get a Marti auto works report to verify that it is a genuine GT/CS. Otherwise I think it is overpriced at $1500.00 Sorry....
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Old 09/20/2003, 03:43 PM   #18
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Re:project car for sale

I think we need to make it clear that there are 2 different CS's that are being discussed on this subject, the one, ebay item 2433269817, is from Canada has a of $4000 Canadan or about 2,967.14 US buy it now. It is the one with the 67 interior and has not been confirmed as a CS.
Now the second CS, ebay item 2433097341, is located in Rowlett, TX just outside of Dallas and has a reserve between $6-7000. It has been confirmed by Marti and by just looking at the pictures I would have said it was a true CS even without the report.
Now as for the price, if you do take away the parts he has purchased, the car is selling for around $4500-5500. I have seen many other Mustangs go for much more in far worse shape. As with any car, it is difficult to judge condition without inspecting the car personnally, ie the extent of rust and cowl condition.
Doug
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Old 09/20/2003, 04:07 PM   #19
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Re:project car for sale

I apologize for being incorrect on my part of the information.
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Old 09/20/2003, 05:27 PM   #20
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Re:project car for sale

Looking at the detailed pictures and the great length he went to describe the cars condition I'd say he has represented the car very well without any intent to misrepresent it. As for what it's worth I'd have to agree with the seller again it's his, it's worth what ever he thinks it is. If it's out of your dollar range or priced higher than you think it should be then I wouldn't bid on it. And if no one bids on it the seller has the option to keep it or relist it. As for us sitting in cyberland judging the car I would say that is somewhat unfair as well. If I was bidding that much and had a question about it I'd go look, without looking I don't think we can really judge the condition of the car. On the other hand if a person has questions as to the history or condition just ask, don't accuse. Were all fellow mustang lovers, we never make a person better by making them feel worse.

Cory
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Old 09/20/2003, 09:50 PM   #21
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Re:project car for sale

Dear Forum,

There is no accussing going on. As for the feedback issue, I was talking about another auction(the canadian mustang) AS for your car, I felt I should mention this to the forum for the buyer to be informed as much as possible. That is the purpose of the forum is to inform. I failed to see anywhere in your description on ebay where the car was previously in a flood, or the engine was seized?? I know as metioned by FAST67 that "He never mentioned the water issue because neither I or any of you would have known it ". This is indeed, is the wrong way to conduct business practices. The consumer should be fully informed, and all previous information about the car should be disclosed whether or not anyone would have known it. This is comparable to someone selling a perfectly replicated shelby, as a authentic shelby. No one would have known it, right? Why tell them? Yours is indeed misrepresentation, as is my previous example.

I just metioned this in passing, knowing that I would like to know this fact in case i was the next owner. And anyone that isn't up front about a previous flood, fails to pass my "on the level" test as well. And "cizzash" is new slang for "mula" for all of you old timers. If you can't figure that one out, I can't really help you. ;D

As for the rust issue, this isn't an easy repair. Anytime high water enters the rocker panels, torque boxes, or frame rails(the insides are not water tight, and are bare metal) the integrity of the metal is compromised by the assurance of the formation of rust. Water was not meant to enter these areas. I consider a vehicle totaled when it costs more to repair the car than the cars blue book value. And I can assure you, to replace the frame rails, torque boxes, quarters, rocker panels, and floorpans, this more than exceeds the current value.

And anytime rust bubbles form and can be seen through paint, you can be assured there is plenty of rust underneath that hasn't peaked its head. The proper way to repair this isnt "cheap, or easy". One has to strip the panel to bare metal and access the situation. Because a patch can not be considered a concourse repair, the proper way to repair quarter rust is to replace the panel(enire quarter panel). A patch can be installed, not cheaply though, and the ever so slight difference in reproduction contouring after painting can be seen unless many numbers of bodyman hours are taken to adjust the surface, resulting in undesirable filler.

AS for proper cowl repair, it isn't cheap or easy. One must drill about 180 spot welds to split the cowl to get inside. Then patch panels must be welded in to replace rusted holes in metal. Those temporary plastic hats and silicone kits are easy fixes, just delaying the inevitable "car surgery".

I can assure you, I did not post this to defame you, or suggest that you are not honest. I know you are not trying to make a quick buck, but asking someone to pay over $6000 for a car that has major current rust issues(floorpans, cowl, quarters, doors), and the undisclosed potential major future issues that haven't yet been accessed from previous flooding(frame rails, torques boxes, rocker panesl). Some things slip the mind sometimes. But a flood should not slip the mind when selling a car. Lets consider my attempt to mention the on the forum is helping you to "inform the customer" . I've been burned many times, as I'm sure we all have, and I don't mind helping others know facts before they buy to prevent them from being burned. You know, It is possible to update your auction information, and have seen no attempts at disclosing info as of this date?

I'm sure that any of you would agree with me that this is the right thing to do? So, please don't have any hard feelings towards me, and see my post as an attempt to help, not to hurt.
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Old 09/21/2003, 06:40 AM   #22
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Re:project car for sale

MrShelbyDallas,

Some of what you say I can agree with, some I cannot.

Quickly, as far as the frame rail, rocker boxes, etc. being flooded and therefore now having rust that the previous 33 years would not have caused rust - bunk. These areas on a car are not sealed and if there was not rust in 33 years, there would not be rust after being under water for a short time. Also if that were true you could not ever wash your car or drive it in the rain for fear of rust issues. Certainly there are rust issues in these areas - this is common and expected in a car this old. Another car I had was rusted in the areas you mentioned and was not flooded. The cars in the North have these issues and are not usually flooded. No cars from the factory had paint or rust proofing in these areas and are prone to rust here.

I did try to update the ad on eBay, and was not able to for some reason. This is problem encountered by me at other times and by others as well. I wrestled with this issue before listing the ad.

I noticed you did not address the 'car was totaled' issue and you did not mention where you got this. Was this an 'oversight' on your part? You listed information that was not correct. You did not have correct info - you were wrong and by putting that info out YOU misinformed people on this forum - that's what you say is your purpose for bringing up the flood issue. Also, you have not e-mailed me directly and asked for the previous owner's name and phone number - or do you know him?

The rust issues, as far as cost, are not cheap - I know. Many people do not mind tackling the problem themselves and want the experience of doing it. Yes they are work to do, but no out of the realm of a relatively easy repair - I have done so. The main concern is the cowl leak -THAT'S WHY I WENT TO THE EFFORT TO CHECK IT OUT. The bubbling is also am issue that I went to extra effort to take the pics and list it as well so that a potential buyer would be informed.

You have my name and e-mail - who are YOU?
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Old 09/21/2003, 09:37 AM   #23
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Re:project car for sale

Quickly, as far as the frame rail, rocker boxes, etc. being flooded and therefore now having rust that the previous 33 years would not have caused rust - bunk.

I would have to agree with you on this one. Just because the car took a bath does in no way mean that it is going be assured of rust issues beyond the normal rust issues as some are trying to imply. I worked for several years in a body shop and I have seen cars that for one reason or another found their way into rivers and lakes and in no way did it assure rust issues. As long as the car was brought out and handled correctly it was fine from a rusting standpoint. Left in a swamp for an extended period maybe. I also own and drive a Jeep, it is my 4th vehicle and is simply a toy. Deep water is a part of the fun. They actually make snorkles for them so you can get even deeper in the water. It doesn't have a single rust issue anywhere on it and it's had plenty of baths.

Your rust issues appear to be the normal rust issues to me and from looking at your photos I wouldn't be the least bit worried about the car taking a bath. The car all in all looks to be a pretty good GT/CS project car to me and could be worked into a fantastic car. I've seen a lot of cars in this age group with rust issues a thousand times worse than what it appears your car has and they had never taken a dunk.

Cory
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Old 09/21/2003, 11:46 AM   #24
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Re:project car for sale

I'm not going to argue w/ anyone anymore. Anyone knows that Water +Bare MEtal+ air= Rust. You can not conclude that this car will be fine without cracking open the frame rail, rockerpanels, and torque boxes. And I assure you, since there was water in them at one time, this accelerated the rust buildup. Normal car washing and raining does not enter these areas, they are closed on the bottom of the car, the only way water can enter is through the tops of these, like the top of the rocker panel, and top of torque boxes(meaning these items must be submerged to have water enter them) You can not argue that one. Normal humidity in the atmosphere does enter them, but this is a process that is a lot slower because of the minimal exposure. The reason peoples frame, torque boxes, and rocker panels rust through sometimes to warrent replacement is because they rusted from the outside to the inside. This happens because mud and other rust accelerants aren't cleaned off the car, and eventually eat through the outside, physically exposing the inside. And your current Jeep frame was made and treated a lot differently than early mustang frames, I agree. I don't care if you worked in a body shop, or have had experience with cars.

I did address the issue of why i classified your car as being totaled. Please be more through in your reading.

I did not misinform anyone on anything. I know what I say is for a fact. As far as where I get my information is none of your business. I don't need to talk to any previous owners, but thanks for the offer. Just consider me an informed individual.

I know you informed people about the rust bubbles. I just wrote about that because of the quick and easy fix FAST67 eluded to.

Rust isn't built on a complex system of horsies, ropes and pulleys, it boils down to simple science. Of course all of you can go on and on about how you don't think there will be a problem, and I don't really care. Your are all welcome to purchase the car if you have the cizash.

This will be my last post concerning this topic. I'm not going to get into an arguement with anyone that doesn't have his/her facts together. I've made my case against any of the un-educated opinions previously posted here. Good luck with the auction!!!
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Old 09/21/2003, 12:19 PM   #25
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Re:project car for sale

Once again, Mrshelbydallas has not left his name or phone number and has expressed NO interest in correcting his mistake and misleading remark about the car being totaled. That leads me to the idea that your original intent was NOT to make people aware of this - it was more malicious than that. Otherwise you would be equally as concerned to set your record straight and address the questions I asked you. Time to belly up to the bar. Do you know the previous owner? WAS the car totaled as you said - or was this WRONG and MISLEADING information? More of your bad info is below.

Another falsehood that I did not mention in the first rebuttal I made was that the engine is NOT seized. The spark plugs were NOT removed. I have it here and when I first got it I was able to rotate it with a wrench on the crankshaft. I also have now removed the pistons and there is not from what I can tell any damage to the cylinder walls or crankshaft. I will be taking the block, crank, pistions, and heads to a machine shop here locally to have this verified.

This was a running/driving car at the time. It had no mechanical or electrical problems.

Mrshelbydallas - what ever your name is - I am 48 years old and have not heard the term 'cizzash.' Mulah - yea, I've heard that one - but it is obvious that you hang with a far different crowd than I do.

Finally, I HAVE now been able to add a note to the ad that the car was in a flood. As I mentioned above, I tried to do this earlier, but was unable to do so. Those of you who challenge my integrity and honesty can now challenge those of Mrshelbydallas. You can question HIM where he got his incorrect facts.

Once again, thanks for this board - it's been great to read the comments and the info on these cars.

Jerry jebo68r@aol.com
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Old 09/21/2003, 12:46 PM   #26
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Re:project car for sale

CaliforniaSpecial.com Members:

I have taken the time every evening to read the postings around this area as I find them very interesting as well as informative.

Although, this argument that has sparked needs an unbiased opinion. I do not own a GT/CS vehicle, but I am involved in a corporation that estimates the value of vehicles, as well as the repair value. In addition to that, I have an extensive amount of information regarding engineering and structural setup of cars.

I have taken the time to read this information, as well as view the pictures and have come to this conclusion:

1) The vehicles condition AS IS without the original motor is not worth 6500. The consumer reports for a low end (with original 6 cylinder motor) cuts in at only 5,460.

This vehicle is missing the original motor, which in a consumer based report will drop the value appox 1,000 - 2,000 dollars.

We are now sitting at 3,460 in low condition which is described as:

This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is".

The vehicle in mention is not usable as-is, nor is it remotely close to "low" value condition. The rust issues and flooding information push this vehicle to:

MAJOR RESTORATION status.

The median value of this vehicle is: 1,500
(W/O Extra Added Parts)


The structural integrity of the vehicle has been jepordized by not only AGE (as all cars are) but due to the increased surplus of water that reaches into interesting parts of the vehicle.

One user mentioned that a flood shouldn't cause that much damage, as we all drive in the rain, car washes, etc. One user also mentioned driving a jeep through lakes and ponds.

Note:

The structural engineering of the Mustang was the unibody system - which, should you look under your vehicle, you will notice many solid pieces that run under the car. When you drive through a car wash, water blasts on this part of the vehicle, and only minor beading will reach into foreign parts of the vehicle. Most of this minor beading evaporates quickly enough to elimante the chance of rust.

When you drop your car in a lakebed, water is a state of matter that has definite volume but not a definite shape. This water contours to the shape of the vehicle - reaching areas that most rain and car washes do not enter. The inside of the vehicle, the trunk, the inner structure of the steal. When this car sits for awhile, and then is removed from the flood. Most water will REMAIN in these areas undectably until it evaporates AFTER causing damaging rust.

The integrity of this vehicle is jepordized.

Most newer cars are not built from STEEL - which rusts, but other metals that resist rusting, allowing you to drive your jeep straight through a lake.

The restoration like this is going to cost in excess of 7,000.

Jack Hanson
 
Old 09/21/2003, 01:29 PM   #27
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Re:project car for sale

Well, there has been a lot of verbage thrown around. As the owner of this car from January 1990 to July 2003, no one knows better then I what the condition of the car is, the circumstances during and following the brief period of time the car was in water, how high the water was, etc. I will say this, the car was given immediate attention following the flood and has been in dry storage since that time.

Anyone who is interested in the car, and not interested in verbal sparring, may email me at any time, and I will glad to share the truth with them.

One final point, the part about the engine seizing, etc. is pure bunk.

 
Old 09/21/2003, 03:22 PM   #28
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Re:project car for sale

Jeeps bodies are made of the same steel other car bodies are made of. The treatment before the painting is the only way car manufacturers prevent corrosion. Needless to say, cars of today are prepared way better than cars of the sixties. I am currently working on an 2006 Chrysler vehicle and the doors actually receive an e-coat primer as just a part of the corrosion protection process. There are some areas of the mustang that were untreated sheet steel, not even galvanizing took place, that some mustangs have lasted as long as they did is a testament to dry weather, indoor storage or a caring owner, maybe even all three. If the mustang only got a quick underwater dousing and was properly cleaned and dried afterward I seriously doubt anyone of us could accurately predict how quicker any rust would show up as opposed to what was there already.

BTW, the word cizzash isn't a universal slang for money, unless of course you hang with 14 year old rapper wanna-be's.
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Old 09/21/2003, 06:21 PM   #29
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Re:project car for sale

Keep on track with the discussion about the GT/CS leave the poor 14 year olds alone =P
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Old 09/21/2003, 08:13 PM   #30
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Re:project car for sale

Well I guess I started a thread war.. Not the intention, to be sure. I just thought that I would throw in a comment or two. 1) I do think that the current owner should have mentioned the water issue. 2) The water damage will be minor if the interior was removed promptly and the car was carefully attended to. 3) if it were not for the price I would have an interest in the car even with the knowledge that I now posess I feel that the car is worth an inspection.
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