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Old 12/07/2008, 12:32 AM   #1
aemoo28
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Cyl head question/engine update

Hello my dears,

Question: the cyl heads on the CS, what date should they be? Mine are '66. I need to know asap, as I've given the shop the go ahead already to rebuild them. At $564 I need to know if it's worth it to keep these or dump them for the correct date.

Update: My engine is hydro-locked. Won't turn manually, even hooked up the battery etc to start it electrically- no turning. There is rust everywhere thanks to all the water I dumbly kept dumping into the new radiator.

It's at ".04", and the consensus is that it's not worth trying to rebuild at this point.

You don't know how much I want to pull that thing out and light it on fire!
It IS coming out (I think next week via my MNW crew- and Robert if you'd like to join us, pls come. Anyone else, for that matter, is welcome.) We have a lift and hopefully enough room in the garage for this enginectomy.

SO coming up, in the beginning of the year or so, I'll be looking for a 302. No $ right now...

Thank you for everyone's advice and offers. And YES I'm thinking of doing this the slow way and painting the engine bay/redoing the transmission/etc while everything is out.

For the love of the Special!!

ISO well behaved, dependable, and determined CS.
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Old 12/07/2008, 10:05 AM   #2
gtcs1
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aemoo28 View Post
Hello my dears,

Question: the cyl heads on the CS, what date should they be? Mine are '66. I need to know asap, as I've given the shop the go ahead already to rebuild them. At $564 I need to know if it's worth it to keep these or dump them for the correct date.

Update: My engine is hydro-locked. Won't turn manually, even hooked up the battery etc to start it electrically- no turning. There is rust everywhere thanks to all the water I dumbly kept dumping into the new radiator.

It's at ".04", and the consensus is that it's not worth trying to rebuild at this point.

You don't know how much I want to pull that thing out and light it on fire!
It IS coming out (I think next week via my MNW crew- and Robert if you'd like to join us, pls come. Anyone else, for that matter, is welcome.) We have a lift and hopefully enough room in the garage for this enginectomy.

SO coming up, in the beginning of the year or so, I'll be looking for a 302. No $ right now...

Thank you for everyone's advice and offers. And YES I'm thinking of doing this the slow way and painting the engine bay/redoing the transmission/etc while everything is out.

For the love of the Special!!
Hi Amy,

What about a 1968 289 engine (with a 4 barrel already on) 66k miles 1 owner for $450? This is on Vintage Mustang Forum.

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/sh.../post/new/#NEW

gtcs1

Last edited by gtcs1; 12/07/2008 at 10:28 AM..

1968 GT/CS - Highland Green - C Code 289
1973 Mustang Convertible - Bright Green Gold Metallic - H Code 351-2V
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Old 12/07/2008, 11:21 AM   #3
franklinair
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I'd be looking for a complete engine (289 or 302), heads included, and not spend the $564 for the old heads you have now.

Neil
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Old 12/07/2008, 12:49 PM   #4
PNewitt
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Amy,

I am so sorry to hear this. An "engine-ectomy" sounds like the way to go.

With it out of there, it would be a good time to do everything that involves less money and more effort--like dragging out that heater-A/C box and that bad heater core.

Re-painting the engine bay sounds good, too. Time to strip out all those layers of black paint.

This is the serious and difficult side of owning a GT/CS, and I definately honor and respect all of you that have gone through this. It is difficult and dirty work (especially in the Winter).

I think that it's very cool that others are coming forward with engines, etc. and help for Amy.

We'll take good care of her. By spring, she'll be driving in her CS catching attention wherever she goes, with the wind in her hair!!!

Hang in there, girl!!

Paul.
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Old 12/07/2008, 01:11 PM   #5
Northern Pony
 

Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Amy;
You have the time, take the time to shop around and find a rebuilt engine that someone is willing to take a loss on. Contact your local mustang club, I bet someone there has an engine or knows where to get it. Go on Musdtang club web sites and look at there classifieds. I would not rebuild the heads you have to use with a different block. If nothing else find a complete engine with correct build dates on it and do that engine completely. Once you have the rebuilt engine go for a new carburator, oil pressure sending unit, etc. A rebuilt engine should have a new oil pump with it, but if buying used engine from somebody else replace that as well.
Sometime next spring use Dupli-Color Engine Enamel with ceramic, 1606 Ford Dark Blue, it is the correct color and the ceramic seems to enhance it.
Good Luck
BoB
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Old 12/07/2008, 03:39 PM   #6
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A thought - Put the engine under a tarp somewhere and put a 347 stroker in the car. This is a 302 stroked to 347. David Athans did this, and then I put my 289 in storage and did the same thing. Joe did it too. So there are plenty of people that have gone this route to give you advice. Given your situation, it would be nice to have some "get up and go" to go along with your 390 coded car. I can point you to a place that sells them cheap - I have one of theirs in my car - Tri-star engines. Casey

1968 GT/CS on cover and featured article, "Gold Rush", in Mustang Times, February 2006
1966 Convertible featured article, "Sweet '66' ", in Mustang Times, January 2008
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Old 12/08/2008, 09:14 AM   #7
robert campbell
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Amy,
Let me know the time and day you are pulling the engine next week. I have been tied up with Thanksgiving and relatives.

You must have found the cast numbers on the heads and they are “C6OE” yada yada. So they could be on a 1966 or early 1967 car. Even if by chance they were original to that car you would have a tough sell with anyone. Would love to see the date codes. In that case they are NOT worth dumping a bunch of money in. You need later heads.

You must have cleaned a piston top and determined that the engine is .040 over. If so it is at the edge of rebuilding and with the recent damage it may also be a poor candidate for investment. Only if it had the VIN number on the block would it be worth dumping money into. Without the heads on it is not hydro locked. It must be seized.

So now you have some choices to make. Do you go out and look for a suitable engine that is cast date correct? You could find one and go stock, or you could hot it up. The 289/302 block are basically the same and you can stroke either to 347 or whatever. At that point you need a bunch of port and valve work on the stock heads to realize the benefits of the larger cubic inch. Or go to aftermarket aluminum heads. You will also need shorty or long tube headers, or at a minimum, a set of hypo 289 exhaust manifolds. And you will need a 4 barrel carb again to fully realize the power gains possible with the increase in cubes.

Or you can forget about all the “sleeper look” and the originality and just get a good crate engine with a warranty. Still need the headers and such, but you will get a proven motor with a warranty. Some shops will warranty custom build engines, but that is a bit iffy in the long run. You can locate a good core engine later for originality if that becomes important to you. In my dealings with Mustangs, they are worth just as much if not more with a late model engine and better drivability. That does not apply to very low production cars such as John’s 428 Cobra Jet GT/CS. But with your car I bet it would be a push. I would even consider a new AOD automatic rather that rebuilding your current one.

So the question is. Originality or restomod with more power. You can have both, but you would need a date correct core engine and it may cost more in the long run.

If I was in your shoes, I would find a respected engine installer and buy a crate engine if power is your goal. You would then get a warranty. Or maybe you want it stock, but reading your love of speed, I doubt it.

Rob
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Old 12/09/2008, 09:36 AM   #8
aemoo28
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Van Nuys show, here we come!

Too late- heads have already been done. It was too late to cancel, and it's ok. I wonder if I put it back together- will it work? Just to see? I don't have the $ right now to buy another engine. I will some day. And yes, power IS (!) everything!!! Inspired by David Athans and those videos! Wow!

No date set to pull the engine, but Mike & I are going to be cleaning the bay this Sunday the 14th. I have this stubborn streak that wants to know if the engine will come alive with the new heads. I don't have a problem with taking everything out again when then day comes that I have the finances to "do it right".

Thank you everyone for your input.

Amy (stubborn Virgo) M.

ISO well behaved, dependable, and determined CS.
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Old 12/09/2008, 11:26 AM   #9
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Amy, Dearest;
If the engine can't be turned with the heads removed, it WON'T turn with the heads installed.

Neil
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Old 12/09/2008, 01:31 PM   #10
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Cool

Amy,

Remember if you rebuild the top end of your motor and not the bottom end. The odds are that you will end up having something go wrong with the bottom and have to tear the whole thing down. I am speaking for experience on this one. I had a 66 fastback and had a head gasket go bad and the engine had over 100,000 miles on it. I tried to save some money by just doing the heads and put it back together and within a couple of months I had to rebuild the entire engine. Expensive lesson learned. Just my 2 cents on this.

Cheers,

Ron

"You can't build a reputation on what you're going to do." - Henry Ford
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Old 12/09/2008, 02:18 PM   #11
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...Yes, and here's the photo you posted earlier Amy of how it looks in there.. If you did manage to free it up and even and start it - your "attention factor" would immediately begin with the huge amounts of smoke coming from the pipes (as the rings eat themselves) followed by loud knocking and (if you're lucky) -seizing again ....or worse - a rod plowing through the block.

Don't do it...
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Old 12/09/2008, 03:03 PM   #12
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Amy,

Don't even think about putting fresh heads on that block the way it sits. If someone is giving you that advice, run as fast as you can.....

Joe

HP numbers are good and all, but they're like asking someone how much they can bench. What difference does it make, if I can still kick your ass.
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Old 12/09/2008, 06:10 PM   #13
robert campbell
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Amy,
So the heads are done. I would not put them on this block if it will not roll and you have identified it as .040 over already. Although the engine did roll, it makes me wonder why it is stuck now. The rust in the bores it not as bad as it looks. But the overheating you did prior to the tear down is of concern. A complete inspection of the short block in your car would be in order. And if you do that to a .040 motor, you will find a lot of stuff to do. None of us would like to see you do this all over in the next 6 months sans the head rebuilding. With that this is my 2 cents on you options.

1. If you use the heads, get a stock, rebuilt, short block and put it back together in stock form. Either a 302 or a 289. Use your 2 barrel carb and stock exhaust. You can realize a bit more power by going to 4 barrels and better exhaust, but for the most part the heads in stock form are always the determining factor. Stock heads will never produce tons of power unless you build a very high RPM motor. I would guess about a $800 to $900 dollars for a short block.

2. Sell the stock heads and move forward with a crate engine long block and go forward with more power, but it sits until you can afford it. Bigger bucks.

3. Find a good used running motor. Hmmmm. There are tons of fuel injected, roller cammed, 302’s with automatic overdrives behind them. You need to buddy up and find a good one with lower miles, but there are literally hundreds of them out there. And they can be a bargain sometimes. Complete cars with low miles wrecked for 500 bucks. They are out there. Not a ton more power, but great drivability. The trick is to get a good one. Sell the heads. You will need to get a conversion wire harness, the brain, and an electric fuel pump with return line to the fuel tank. Not a huge project.

4. Locate a good used older 302/289 and slip it in. Again the trick is to find a good one, but you should be able to get help in that area. Someone in this thread had a possible date correct one.

Rob
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Old 12/13/2008, 04:22 AM   #14
aemoo28
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Okay, okay. Thank you Tim, for the lovely picture. Ok. OK OK OK.

Thank you, my CS family. You know how to steer me back on track.

I'm waiting for a new/rebuilt 289/302, but it'll be a wait in the financial dept. I've already dropped $2K in my $18K "good condition" car. Next year perhaps.

I sit and watch the Grass Valley video and gaze longingly at the black/white stripe CSs, hoping to add mine to the pile next year.

In case anyone missed the story:

http://californiaspecial.com/forums/...reat+adventure

AMY

(and yes Neil- it's part of the same collection)

Last edited by aemoo28; 12/14/2008 at 11:45 PM.. Reason: link added

ISO well behaved, dependable, and determined CS.
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