A Numbers Game

OK - Very interesting. I got a thought provoking email from our good friend HC Bob. Let me see if I can do this justice:

Originally 5,500 GT/CS's to be produced - that number was trimmed down to (if I remeber right) 4,500 and then 4118 GT/CS's were actually produced.

Of those 4,118 produced, the California region called upon other areas to help sell the inventory so SLC, WA, OR and other areas started to get them and the HCS was born. So, 251 of the 4,118 were HCS. Break that down and we have a total of only 3,867 GT/CS's made which is about 1.2% for GT/CS and less than 0.1% for HCS of all 68 Mustangs. I am not sure how many GT/CS's are currently registered as alive/being restored, but the last number in "book 2" was 776 (including HCS). I have a GT/CS that isn't registered in '96 and I have read of others that do not have theirs - so let's round to 1000 (Paul - correct me if you have better info). This makes our cars that more precious - only about 24% remaining!

Now, to put that further into perspective - consider some of the really rare GT/CS and HCS's out there - 428CJ's to name one.

Man, are we lucky or what! 8)

I don't think the HCS's were cut from the GT/CS stock. In other words there were 4118 GT/CS's produced plus the 251 HCS's.

Hook

Hook,
if you look at a post made about a year ago, this same question came up. The 4118 does include the HCS's, confirmed by Marti, the reason for it is even on the HCS's the option states "California Special". The only way the HCS is separated from the GT/CS on the Marti Report sheet is the DSO of "51". Kevin Marti will write "HCS" on the bottom of his report only because he knows a 68 Mustang with the California Special option and a DSO of 51 is a "HCS".

x-code is correct in his numbers and figures. If you look at Bob's 428 HCS, it indeed is a rare car. But then again, so are all the GT/CS's and HCS's.

Doug

This is one of those things that I need to chase down--for the new book.

Anyone with a HCS ('68) invoice will see a number at the bottom, which starts out with a 71. The Southern Calif. DSO Ford dealers (part of the FDAF--Ford Dealers Advertising Fund), sold cars to be produced--to the Denver District DSO 51. This was like a big trade between districts, and not explained (nor recorded) in the Ford material that Marti may have from Dearborn.

When I researched my book in 1987, I was told that ACSCO, the company that made the CS script, made only 8050 sets of script.

The GT/CS, honestly, was not a big hit (but neither was the 427 Cobra in 1967), so dealers and districts got frantic, and relented to Colorado.

I need to do some parts production chasing to see just how these numbers work out. I'm inclined to agree that the 251 HCS cars were inclusive to all of the GT/CS production. But, I need to sort this out.

it IS interesting, because it tightens up the limited numbers of engine types, etc., even more.

As for the 24% "out there", that number is very consistent with '67 and '68 Shelby registrations in the Shelby Club (SAAC). So, we're in the same ball park.

Paul N.

Interesting, I'd have to say that I like the idea that they were included in the numbers. Makes the GTCS's all a little more rare.

I stand corrected. :-[

Oh and just so I'm in the mix, I'd like a couple of your new books as well Paul, don't want to be left out, I have signed copies of the first two better keep my collection up to date.

Hook

Having read this thread several times now it brings up an interesting question about the NADA values. Since the HCS cars came from the Los Angeles area and are basically a GT/CS without the GT/CS logo on side scoop, why then is there a difference in NADA prices between the two cars? Is it because of location and the cars being tagged as a HCS or is it because maybe the NADA folks don't know squat about these cars? I myself tend to think it's their knowledge base being thin on the two cars. Not a real big difference in Average Retail price but, look at High Retail and there's a couple thousand dollar difference. For Info, I compared a "S" code 390 with 4 speed on both cars. For those interested I have included a link to their pages.

http://www.nadaguides.com/Values/Va...8000&wSec=2&wPg=1270&CategoryId=8&MakeId=1065

Don :

My understanding in speaking with HC Bob is that his Marti report confirms the 251 is included with the 4118 number - this also ties with Paul's 8050 sets of Cal Spec. script (4025 cars that could have the script). I am also aware that the script was still available at Ford Dealers in the late '80's (when I started to get involved in Mustangs) - now whether or not extras were made is unknown - but with the confirmed production of 3,867 GT/CS's, the script was likely from the 1968 era.

As for the value differences, I think it is largely model ignorance. As we all know, the GT/CS has only recently had it's up-and-comance. The HCS is only lagging a little behind (consider the price of Paul's authored books).

I remeber people at local car shows saying that Larry's GT/CS and HCS were made up - these were the supposed to be the local Mustang guru's. I cannot tell you how excited he was when Paul came out with his first book - he proudly displayed it for all to see and dispell any disbelief.

In reference to the NADA online reference, I noticed that they refer to the 265HP 390 (2V - AKA X-Code) - but really the X-code motors were rated at 280HP - these had a higher compression ratio than the Thunderbird Special 265HP 390 2V. There is always a learning curve - the more rare, the longer the curve.

I guess as lucky owners of RARE cars (and even more rare in HCS case), we have to be patient with all the gurus out there and just grin, knowing what we know. 8)

Bryce

PS - I always appreciate the rapid response, feedback and help that I have always received here. This is truely a great friendly group -no chip, nothing to proove- rare in many Mustang circles. Thanks all!!!

Well, here are some more numbers to ponder...

OK, let's go with the GT/CS production number (minus the HCS' 251) of 3867.

That number times two, for two sets of script each (made by ACSCO) equals 7734 sets of script.

If you subtract that number from the 8050 production number request from Ford pre-production documents to ACSCO (I have copies), it equals 316 sets of script, divided by two (two sets per car), it is enough for 158 cars.

I have read in Ford memos that it's standard production to include 20% more parts to send to service departments, etc...

8050 sets of script requested by Ford production, minus 7734 sets used (for 3867 cars) equals 316 sets remaining

20% of 8050 is 1610. 316 left over is almost 4% of 8050.

So, these numbers are tight, and the HCS, and it's lack of side script was included in the production estimates right up to August 1968, as reflected in these numbers. There was not enough script (obviously) for the HCS production variation of 251.

ACSCO continued to make script for the GT/CS for many years, since they are an outside vendor for FoMoCo / Autolite since 1968. They also made the Cobra roadster emblems and all the Shelby Mustang emblems--as well as the Cougar XR7-G emblems.

As a side note, my original estimate of 4025 cars was off now by 158 cars. Not too bad, working around the "official" Ford data back in 1987. What Ford wanted to make, and how about 25 weeks of production based on (lower than expected) dealer re-orders isn't easy to track.

As the numbers go, this is interesting. Now we need to readjust the numbers of each engine type, and whether it's a CS or HCS. Kevin Marti would have to tweak the DSO 51 data from the others with the GT/CS Appearance package, and come up with some new numbers. All I can do are percentages--based on samples from the registry.

Overall, My best (guru) guess would be that of the 3867 CS cars, that 900 in the registry, represent 23%. I'll figure another 5% unregistered, in junkyards, parted out, etc., so we might have about 1000 cars left out there running. As a thumbnail guerss, we could consider remaining GT/CS cars at about 250 in No Calif, 300 in So. Calif, and 420 in the rest of the US, and about 30 other countries.

I agree--we have a really good group here. Very friendly! I'm the kinda Mustanger who would rather stand at a car show with another CS owner while eating a hot dog, yakkin' about how fun these cars are, and interesting stories, rather than arguing about fender bolt colors. We're a group secure in what we know about our cars. I do hear you about "other Mustang circles". Been there, done that.

This is about having fun and embracing the spirit of this wonderful Mustang!

Paul N.

x-codegtcs;
I can relate to the experience that Larry had with his cars. I placed a post on this site when I first joined it back in Feb 04 about that very thing. I had a self professed "Mustang" expert ask me how I had come up with the idea of customizing a mustang this way. When I showed him Paul's book he didn't want to talk anymore and just walked away. As for this site, it is the best I've belonged to. Not only are your questions answered but, much advise and ways of doing things are also presented. It is through this site and Paul's books that I have learned about our unique cars. A big THANKS to everyone on the site.

Don ;D