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1968 Car randomly dies

robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
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Sheryl,
Does it have a dual connection vacuum advance? Have you sucked on the vacuum advance hose with the dizzy cap off to see if the advance plate moves and the diaphragm holds it?

First check the current timing and note it. If it not near 10 degrees BTDC spin the dizzy up to at least 10 degrees BTDC. If it has a dual connection vacuum advance I would replace it with a NAPA VC 970 single connection vacuum advance. If you do this you will definitely need to time it as the timing will change. Do note the current timing before you start.

The VC 970 is adjustable. We can talk about that later.

Rob
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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Sheryl,
Does it have a dual connection vacuum advance? Have you sucked on the vacuum advance hose with the dizzy cap off to see if the advance plate moves and the diaphragm holds it?

First check the current timing and note it. If it not near 10 degrees BTDC spin the dizzy up to at least 10 degrees BTDC. If it has a dual connection vacuum advance I would replace it with a NAPA VC 970 single connection vacuum advance. If you do this you will definitely need to time it as the timing will change. Do note the current timing before you start.

The VC 970 is adjustable. We can talk about that later.

Rob
Rob, thank you, as soon as I fix the electrical and getting it running we will check it. Sheryl
 

robert campbell

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Certainly replacing the heated wires needs to be done. I still think the dying was not a result of electrical problems, but might have been carb and timing adjustments.

Rob
 

Mosesatm

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It could even be something as simple as a plugged fuel filter.
 

p51

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Here's my 2 cents worth on the 'fix'. (Get rid of the extraneous component(s) you've already installed.)
1.) Replace the Ignition Switch due to potential overheated sockets.
2.) Replace the Ignition Switch Pigtail due to overheated wire/insulation.
3.)Splice the new pigtail into the existing under dash harness- (ALL wires, including the Pink wire)
4.) Use crimped splices. (They will not fail/corrode if properly crimped.) Airlines have been using them for decades with no problem.

Now for my modification for 12V to the Coil + terminal at ALL times (Starting or Running):

Locate the 2 connectors at the firewall, adjacent to the left valve cover.
The square one will have a Black/Red wire (#140)
The skinny connector will have a Red/Green wire (#16B).
Install a Jumper wire between the two.- I use a 18 gauge wire with Black insulation so as not to be too visible. I strip the insulation about 3/8" on both ends and insert each end into the respective receptacles. Its a tight fit, but goes in OK.
This configuration will allow 12V to the Coil when Starting, and 12V to the Coil when running, with no ill side affects. Due to 12V being applied on both ends of the Pink wire, there is no current flow when in the Run position. It will last forever.
The Pertronix installation should be done as per instructions, using their higher voltage Coil.
All will be well.

Neil

Re:
"Locate the 2 connectors at the firewall, adjacent to the left valve cover.
The square one will have a Black/Red wire (#140)
The skinny connector will have a Red/Green wire (#16B).
Install a Jumper wire between the two"

Neil

I just went through the shop manual schematics on this proposed fix and I have a concern about it. Referring to the Shop Manual on page 19-35, Black/Red wire #140 (on square connector A) hooks directly to #296, goes through a fuse to #297A/297 which is hooked to the "A" terminal of the ignition switch. From what I can tell the "A" terminal is switched to the battery "B" terminal (signal #21/37 on page 19-37 and 19-36) when the key is in both the "run" and the "accessory" position. That means that the fix above will be supplying power to the coil even when you are just sitting in the car with the key in the "accessory" position, say, listening to the radio without the engine running. If this were the case the coil draw of ~8amp could drain the battery pretty fast and if you have an ignitor1 unit it could also possibly burn that out.

I think a similar idea of jumper between #904 and #16A/16B (page 19-37) at the "D" connector would do what you want. #904 is hooked directly to terminal "C" on the ignition switch which is connected to the battery during "run" and "crank". "C" is also the connection for the resistor wire to the coil.

Caveat: I have a hard time reading these schematics so I may have sussed this out all wrong...

James

** Update 06/14/2018: I just checked the Black/Red line on the square connector with a multimeter. It is receiving battery voltage (12.5v measured) when the car is not running and the key is in the "accessory" position.
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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It could even be something as simple as a plugged fuel filter.
good point. I will replace the fuel filter. Also will check all wires and connections. (sand and grease them all too)

I've received the pigtail. How do I wire the pink wire?
 

p51

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good point. I will replace the fuel filter. Also will check all wires and connections. (sand and grease them all too)

I've received the pigtail. How do I wire the pink wire?


In my opinion...
... there are two ways to proceed at this point given that you already have the Pertronix power relay.

(1) You could hook up the new pigtail connector to the existing wires, including the pink resistor wire, using crimp ("butt") connectors and use the relay per Pertronix instructions with the resistor wire now controlling the relay. The downside of this is that the relay is one more thing that can fail, plus you have to find spot for it, etc. The upside is that there is significantly less current flowing through the ignition switch (~0.2amp vs ~8amp if my calculations are correct which means less chance of frying wires, etc) and you don't have to hack the exiting wires, just connect the pigtail connector. This is what I have done on my car (but with a conventional Bosch relay). Note: If you go this route, I would check the pink/resistor wire from the connector all the way out to where it would hook to the coil with a multimeter just for connectivity. You should get ~1.5ohms. Note2: I'm also a bit worried about your report of the "relay's purple wire heating up".

(2) You could completely replace the pink resistor wire with a 12 gauge wire (maybe a smaller 14G wire??) and run this all the way out to the Pertronix coil and ignitorII (you can just leave the pink connector wire disconnected). Again, using crimp connectors to hook up the pigtail connector. With this method you don't need the relay but you should be able use it if you wish for the reduced current benefits (I looked at the Pertronix instructions... if you use their relay with this scenario, check if the resistor in the control wire is *needed* or not. With a conventional relay it is not required, you can use either a resistor wire or a regular wire with no difference.)

Side note: I agree with Neil that using crimp connectors to hook up the pigtail or splice is ok (soldering would be better but I think would be very hard to do under the dash). I would use insulated crimp connectors with heat-shrink tubing over them. If you are unfamiliar with insulated crimp connectors, heat-shrink tubing, or how to do wire crimping, just ask.
 

franklinair

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If you install the 'jumper' wire as in my previous post, you won't need the Pink wire at all. Just cap it & stow it.

Neil
 

p51

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If you install the 'jumper' wire as in my previous post, you won't need the Pink wire at all. Just cap it & stow it.

Neil

Neil, did you read my message about that wire being "hot" when the key is in the "accessory" position? If I am wrong about this please let me know how/why I am incorrect, I would like to learn. I have checked that wire with a multi-meter.

Thanks
James
 

franklinair

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Jim; Yes the wire would be Hot when the Ignition Switch is in the ACC position. I don't concern myself with that for a couple reasons:
1.) That function is not used all that often, and then usually for a short time only.
2.) You seem to be concerned about the current draw through the Coil, and running the Battery down. A typical automotive coil resistance is 6,000 to 10,000 ohms. For a median value lets use 8,000 ohms. Current draw is calculated I=E/R. So 12V/8,000= .0015Amps
Also consider that when in the ACC position (engine not running) the Ignition system is dormant- no spark demand, Distributor not turning, Field windings of the Coil are not being induced to produce any voltage.
When I finish rewiring my '68 convertible (Pertronx Ign & Jumper wire) I'll take voltage & current readings with photos to illustrate.

Neil
 

p51

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Jim; Yes the wire would be Hot when the Ignition Switch is in the ACC position. I don't concern myself with that for a couple reasons:
1.) That function is not used all that often, and then usually for a short time only.
2.) You seem to be concerned about the current draw through the Coil, and running the Battery down. A typical automotive coil resistance is 6,000 to 10,000 ohms. For a median value lets use 8,000 ohms. Current draw is calculated I=E/R. So 12V/8,000= .0015Amps
Also consider that when in the ACC position (engine not running) the Ignition system is dormant- no spark demand, Distributor not turning, Field windings of the Coil are not being induced to produce any voltage.
When I finish rewiring my '68 convertible (Pertronx Ign & Jumper wire) I'll take voltage & current readings with photos to illustrate.

Neil

Neil

Thanks for the response and the info.

The concern I have is that the power being provided from the ignition switch is going to the primary coil and, if I did the measurement correctly, that resistance is ~1.8ohms, from the + to the - terminal. (On the other hand, the secondary coil from the output going to the distributor to the - terminal is 11000 ohms but that is not the critical circuit here). That would indicate a current being provided by the ignition switch is more on the order of 12/1.8~=10amp draw. The other concern I have is that for the ignitor1 Pertronix specifically indicates that the key should not be left in the "run" position (that is, the ignitor1 should not powered up) if the engine is not running as it will damage the ignitor1. So if someone with an ignitor1 turned on the "accessory" to listen to the radio they run the risk of burning out their ignitor1. For people with ignitor2 and ignitor3 this would not be a problem however, as apparently this issue was fixed.

Thanks again
James
 

franklinair

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The Pertronix 2/3 probably were improved with a better blocking diode internally. I have used Pertronix 1 & 2 over the years (20+/-) and NEVER had a problem with either, never burned up a Coil, and never run the battery down.
The Pertronix 1 caution does not seem logical: Leaving the Ignition Switch in the Run position with the engine not running? Who does that, and why? (Other than short term for some sort of trouble shooting.) Even a Points & Condensor system could suffer a failure of the Condensor if left on continuously/unnecessarily. What are the odds of that happening?
I think you're concerned over a non issue. But to alleviate your concern, I will mock up a demo when I have my convertible wiring completed.

Neil
 

p51

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The Pertronix 2/3 probably were improved with a better blocking diode internally. I have used Pertronix 1 & 2 over the years (20+/-) and NEVER had a problem with either, never burned up a Coil, and never run the battery down.
The Pertronix 1 caution does not seem logical: Leaving the Ignition Switch in the Run position with the engine not running? Who does that, and why? (Other than short term for some sort of trouble shooting.) Even a Points & Condensor system could suffer a failure of the Condensor if left on continuously/unnecessarily. What are the odds of that happening?
I think you're concerned over a non issue. But to alleviate your concern, I will mock up a demo when I have my convertible wiring completed.

Neil

Re: "The Pertronix 1 caution does not seem logical: Leaving the Ignition Switch in the Run position with the engine not running? Who does that, and why?"

Neil

Sorry, I think I was unclear on that point. Here is what Pertronix says regarding the ignitor1:

"Q: What will happen if I leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not running?
A: Leaving the ignition switch on when the engine is not running, can cause permanent damage to the ignition system, and related components. This does not apply to the accessory position of the ignition switch."

http://www.pertronix.com/support/tips/#a3

Since with the proposed "jumper fix" this would effectively power the ignitor1 in the "accessory" mode in the same fashion as would be seen in the "run" mode without the engine running, I was concerned that this fix would therefore potentially damage the ignitor1 anytime someone had the switch in the "accessory" mode for an extended period of time. This is much more likely than accidentally leaving the key in the "run" mode. That was what I was concerned about. I believe (but am not sure) that this "problem" was solved on the ignitor2 and 3.

Regarding a mock up, please do not feel you need to do this for me. I have already solved this issue with a relay. I am just trying to ensure that Sheryl (and anyone else trying to solve a similar problem in the future) is fully aware of all the pros and cons of the different proposed solutions. IMO, in the end it is their decision to make.

Thanks again.
James
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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I finally got out there yesterday morning before it got too hot. I took the driver seat out, tired of working with the seat in the way. The ground wire on the old pigtail fell out of the back into my hand (very bad connection! possibly causing all the problems?)

As suggested, I used a terminal tool to get the pink wire out of the old pigtail, and put it in the new pigtail with a little epoxy, I hope it stays in. Installed new pigtail, new ignition switch, and new cougar headlight switch. Car started right up!!!!! Happy dance :smile:

Then last night, once it cooled off from 100, With fingers crossed, I drove it downtown for fuel and stopped at the firehouse to surprise John. The firemen washed it for me!

Ignition wires did not get hot. (I did not turn the AC on yet, was just enjoying having the car running again) but I need to test it with AC on and make sure the wires don't heat up.

Car needs to be tuned. John can do a Holley, but this is an Edelbrock

After the fire guys washed it, all my turn signal lights stopped working. WTH???
 

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p51

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Car needs to be tuned. John can do a Holley, but this is an Edelbrock

Edelbrock's are easy-peasy to tune.

Here's the manual:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/dl/carb-owners-manual.pdf

And a bunch of "How to" videos on Youtube... like these...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcavX5cTDbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR_AfQjyT-A

You might also consider investing in one of the tuning kits as well. Eg for a 1406 carb...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1487
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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Edelbrock's are easy-peasy to tune.

Here's the manual:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/dl/carb-owners-manual.pdf

And a bunch of "How to" videos on Youtube... like these...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcavX5cTDbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR_AfQjyT-A

You might also consider investing in one of the tuning kits as well. Eg for a 1406 carb...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1487
James, Thank you for all your help on this car! I really do appreciate it. Sheryl
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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when I turn on the AC the Yellow, Black/green stripe and purple wires in the (newly replaced) Ignition switch are heating up.

is this normal? they felt warm so I turned off the AC ( and suffered with the heat) not having fun anymore:confused:

The blower fan makes noise also
 
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p51

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when I turn on the AC the Yellow, Black/green stripe and purple wires in the (newly replaced) Ignition switch are heating up.

is this normal? they felt warm so I turned off the AC ( and suffered with the heat) not having fun anymore:confused:

The blower fan makes noise also

Sheryl

(some of the below is just review and/or obvious)

Yellow is 12v battery voltage. The black-green wire (#297 in schematics) provides battery voltage to various accessories when the ignition switch is in the "run" and "accessory" position. For the life of me I cannot figure out exactly what the purple wire does (it only seems to be used during "start" to "prove out" some of the idiot lights, etc)... so I will ignore it.

If the yellow and black-green wire heat up excessively (eg burns your finger) only when you have the AC on it is likely that something in the "AC system" is shorting to ground drawing excessive current through the yellow and black-green wires. It could be the blower, compressor, etc or even the wiring.

One thing to try is to isolate the problem further. First (as a baseline), turn the key to the "accessory" position without anything running. If the black-green wire gets hot then it might be bad insulation causing a short to ground somewhere in that wire. If the wire stays cool then leave the key in the "accessory" position and turn on just the blower without engaging the AC. Check to see if the wires now get hot. If so, then there is something in the blower (eg the motor) causing the problem. If not, it is something in the rest of the AC system. This would require tracing the black-green (#297) wire in the schematics to see what it controls.

The purple wire may only be getting hot because of proximity to the yellow wire or the ignition switch might? be bad (but I believe you just replaced that, so I doubt that could be the problem).

A short in the "AC system" may have been what previously caused the wiring insulation to crack.

James
 
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Batgirl89

Batgirl89

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Sheryl

(some of the below is just review and/or obvious)

Yellow is 12v battery voltage. The black-green wire (#297 in schematics) provides battery voltage to various accessories when the ignition switch is in the "run" and "accessory" position. For the life of me I cannot figure out exactly what the purple wire does (it only seems to be used during "start" to "prove out" some of the idiot lights, etc)... so I will ignore it.

If the yellow and black-green wire heat up excessively (eg burns your finger) only when you have the AC on it is likely that something in the "AC system" is shorting to ground drawing excessive current through the yellow and black-green wires. It could be the blower, compressor, etc or even the wiring.

One thing to try is to isolate the problem further. First (as a baseline), turn the key to the "accessory" position without anything running. If the black-green wire gets hot then it might be bad insulation causing a short to ground somewhere in that wire. If the wire stays cool then leave the key in the "accessory" position and turn on just the blower without engaging the AC. Check to see if the wires now get hot. If so, then there is something in the blower (eg the motor) causing the problem. If not, it is something in the rest of the AC system. This would require tracing the black-green (#297) wire in the schematics to see what it controls.

The purple wire may only be getting hot because of proximity to the yellow wire or the ignition switch might? be bad (but I believe you just replaced that, so I doubt that could be the problem).

A short in the "AC system" may have been what previously caused the wiring insulation to crack.

James

James, Thank you! I didn't even think of running the fan w/o the AC on. Ill do that next. The fan is making a lot of noise at times, moaning/grinding. I have my shop manual out this am looking at the schematics also!

These car problems consume my mind, its all I think about! Internet searches, crawling all over the car looking at wires, cleaning connects and grounds. Its a good diversion sometimes:smile:

Enjoy the weekend, Sheryl
 
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