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Old 07/11/2007, 06:47 PM   #1
Mosesatm
 
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Timing

What do you think of this guy's approach to improving the timing of engines?

http://www.bob2000.com/dist.htm

He says to decrease the mechanical advance to 20 degrees and increase the initial timing to around 12 degrees. That is supposed to give better low speed response yet prevents pinging at high speeds.
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Old 07/13/2007, 10:46 AM   #2
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Arlie,
Timing, as we all know, is critical to how each engine is built and how it runs. If you cam or carb them differently or add after market exhaust and such they engine will more than likely respond to a different approach to timing. Even stock engines will respond differently from engine to engine. I love the link that you posted and I did not know about! Another tool in the tool box!

I personally like to run as much initial timing as possible. The engine idles cleaner and creates more vacuum. Runs a bit cooler also. The downside is it is tougher on the starter during hot starts. But I have experienced little of that in 289’s and 302’s in stock to mile high performance builds.

My GT/CS has a 302-roller cam motor in it with Edlebrock RPM aluminum heads and intake. 670 Holley Street Avenger. JBA Shorty headers and 2 chamber “flows”. Cam is a crane retrofit roller in the .542 lift range. Mild lope, good vacuum and great mid range through top end. I am running a stock distributor with Pertronix ignition and coil. I run it a 12 BTDC degrees initial. No pinging great idle and power. Stock starter.

There are three types of timing. Initial, centrifugal/mechanical, and vacuum, on a stock application. One critical mark is total timing. The common mark for all V8’s is 38 degrees of total advance. Some can run a bit more some a bit less. 40/36. Every engine responds a bit different. Octane of gas will greatly affect these figures! To measure total, you either need a timing light with a degree dial, or a timing tape on the vibration damper. Tape is at any auto store that has some high performance stock. Get the engine warm and then with it in park and the e brake on, grab the carb linkage and run increase the rpm of the engine up to 3,000 RPM. You will watch the timing move as the RPM increase and the vacuum and mechanical throw in. Your goal is to set stuff up to get the 38 degrees total.

Now lets talk about ways to change the mecchanical advance. Try what the link says and then test it on your car with the light and see if it works. I think that would be a great way to alter a stock Ford distributor to shorten the mechanical advance to allow for more initial. Another way is change springs and weights. For that type of experimentation a “distributor machine” is best. Sunnen was and old company that made a machine you could drop your distributor in and customize the advance “curve”. Commonly called “recurving” your distributor. Some old hot rod shops still have them around.

Now lets talk vacuum advance. Many GT/CS cars have the dual diaphragm vacuum advance. They were part of the infant world of “smog” control. If you are not a purest, pull that distributor out and put in on the shelf. You can buy a replacement stock distributor for a 67 or 68 Mustang with a single diaphragm vacuum advance. The modern vacuum advance diaphragm has a stamp steel outer housing that is in the shape of a large hex nut towards the hose connection. You may already have this one in your engine. This type of diaphragm allows you to adjust the vacuum advance easily. Pull the hose off the diaphragm and insert a 3/32 allen wrench down the opening. You will engage an adjustment “screw”. Turning the wrench clockwise increases the amount of vacuum advance and adds to the total amount of advance. Turning counter clockwise decreases the amount of vacuum advance and decreases the total advance. The older “stock” Ford diaphragms have a removable nut on the end of the diaphragm that contains the hose connection. Removing this nut exposes a spring and spacers that can be altered to alter the advance. Lots of experimentation and a distributor machine is best.

So with this in mind you can increase the initial timing out to 10 or 12 and then decrease the total by turning the vacuum advance adjustment counter clockwise. Then you go for drives and see how it works. In an afternoon you may find a combination of more initial and less vacuum that works better. A dyno would be great for this. But you can do it seat of the pants. This is how I set up my GT/CS.

Do not let the car ping heavily under hard acceleration or hills. Also the type of gas is important. If you tune it running 92 and then grab some 87 it may not like you.

On my 67 with 13 to 1 compression and my 428 Cobra Jet in my 57 wagon with 11.7 to 1, I have Mallory unilights with no vacuum advance. I shorten up the mechanical and run them at 16 to 18 degrees BTDC and 40 total at 3,000 RPM. They are very radical and love lots of initial timing!

Another thought is ported and non-ported vacuum to the vacuum advance distributor. That will be another long response if anyone is interested. It can also help a car run cleaner and smoother at idle.

Rob
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Old 07/13/2007, 11:06 AM   #3
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Interesting... I've also wondered about today's fuel as I hear it's more formulated for injected engines as opposed to carburated and that it ignites quicker. I find myself always adjusting the timing "seat of the pants" after dis-satisfactory performance from spec... Is the fuel related and what is your favorite brand/ type for relatively stock engines?

Tim
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Old 07/13/2007, 11:45 AM   #4
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Tim;
I run a 50/50 mix of 93 unleaded and Cam 2 racing fuel from time to time and it does make a difference in the performance of my 428 CJ. I'd love to just run streight Cam 2 but, at $5.00 or more a gallon it would get pretty tuff.

Don

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Old 07/13/2007, 02:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68gt390 View Post
Tim;
I run a 50/50 mix of 93 unleaded and Cam 2 racing fuel from time to time and it does make a difference in the performance of my 428 CJ. I'd love to just run streight Cam 2 but, at $5.00 or more a gallon it would get pretty tuff.

Don
Good ol'e avgas was great too, but it's at $4.83 ;-)

I just get concerned sometimes knowing the new fuel is not the same as old, and not wanting to damage the engine. There's a steep hill nearby where I will play w/ timing and carb adjustments, test drive and have everything running perfect for the moment using Chevron Premium w/ lead additive every 4th tank or so. But then, I'll grab some Union 76 Premium along the way and the car will ping & hesitate etc... until I go back to Chevron. I notice it alot more on the 351C ('70 Mach) for some reason...

Tim
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Old 07/14/2007, 10:03 AM   #6
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I occasionally have the opportunuty to use Avgas in my 302 when we have to remove fuel from an aircraft (usually about 5 Gals).

Our retail is only $4.38/gal. Drive on over and fillerup!!
Neil Hoppe
North Carolina
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Old 07/14/2007, 10:06 AM   #7
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my 500HP 347 stroker with .544" intake .560" exhaust and 290 degrees duration advertised for intake and 300 degrees duration advertised for exhaust (232 degrees duration at .05" lift intake, 242 degrees duration at .05" lift exhaust) 110 degrees lobe seperation...hydraulic roller lifters...aluminum heads and intake manifold....with pro-billet msd distributor and 6AL box and msd coil...with autolite 3924 sparks gapped to .045".......

i have 16 degrees initial advance and 20 degrees built into the centrifugal/vacuum advance for a grand total of 36 degrees total timing...no pinging on 91 octane
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Old 07/15/2007, 07:12 PM   #8
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As David states he runs fine on 91 octane. And his car is “way” high performance by the times he sets. Its all about setting your car up properly. I have a nearly 12 to one 428 and a 13 to one 289 that both run on today’s gas. There are a lot of wives tales out there on today’s gas. Today’s 91 or 92 octane reacts much the same as yesterdays 99 or Custom Supreme 101. It burns slowly enough without the use of lead to slow down its explosive ability and suppress pinging. Aluminum heads help also. A cam with a lot of overlap helps bleed off low RPM compression that assists in low speed pinging and starter cranking speed overload.

But for stock engines you should be able to run near stock specs with today’s gas. It reacts much in the same way. Lead additives are a bunch of BS unless you are pulling a trailer with a truck or running a boat with car engine with old iron seats. Most Sunday drivers will never put enough miles on their cars in 50 years to notice a difference of valve seat recession. And the miles are usually very easy. Don’t spend money on lead additives!

If you car runs better on Avgas or with a bunch of octane boosters you don’t have it tuned for today’s gas or you like to spend a lot of money. There was an interesting article a year or so ago in Hot Rod Magazine. They took a test mule 360 mopar motor that was worth about 400 HP and ran it on today’s 87, 92, and yesterdays 101 and some Avgas. They made pulls with all sorts of changes to timing and found that motor would run on all the gas and make power, but it did make the most power on the 101 and Avgas/race fuel. Proves that the old gas was much more explosive and produced many more “joules” of energy. Whew, sound like a professor now….. Not!!!!

I have run many a modified engine and many stock ones. I find that most motors like a bit more initial timing than stock specs. But again you have to keep the total in the 36 to 38 range. Arlie had a cool link on how a stock Ford distributor can shorten up the mechanical and let you run more initial. Every car will react differently. Fine tuning is the key. There is no need to run spend money on half an half today’s and high octane gas AVgas. You can tune it to run fine. My GT/CS, 428 Cobra Jet 1957 Wagon, and 13 to one 289 in a 67 Fastback run great on today’s 91 premium. Would they go faster on the old stuff if tuned? Absolutely!!!

By the way, a great article on the new “corn” fuel is in this months “Mustang and Fords”. You want to go fast??? This is the new stuff that burns even more powerful that gas!!! I am waiting for it to come to my local gas station!! Tune it to run on this stuff and YAAAAAAA BAAAABBBBEEEE!!!

Rob
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Old 07/16/2007, 06:42 AM   #9
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Thanks Rob for the insightful comments. There are indeed alot of wives tales and admittedly, that's all I have to go on sometimes until educated otherwise.
Your "backing" with experience and research is refreshing. 'Curious now of your opinions re: best lubrication/ motor oils... Perhaps on another thread. As I'm more in the "Sunday driver" category, I'm always looking for the best maintenance and preservation methods.

Tim
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Old 07/16/2007, 10:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert campbell View Post
As David states he runs fine on 91 octane. And his car is “way” high performance by the times he sets. Its all about setting your car up properly. I have a nearly 12 to one 428 and a 13 to one 289 that both run on today’s gas. There are a lot of wives tales out there on today’s gas. Today’s 91 or 92 octane reacts much the same as yesterdays 99 or Custom Supreme 101. It burns slowly enough without the use of lead to slow down its explosive ability and suppress pinging. Aluminum heads help also. A cam with a lot of overlap helps bleed off low RPM compression that assists in low speed pinging and starter cranking speed overload.

But for stock engines you should be able to run near stock specs with today’s gas. It reacts much in the same way. Lead additives are a bunch of BS unless you are pulling a trailer with a truck or running a boat with car engine with old iron seats. Most Sunday drivers will never put enough miles on their cars in 50 years to notice a difference of valve seat recession. And the miles are usually very easy. Don’t spend money on lead additives!

If you car runs better on Avgas or with a bunch of octane boosters you don’t have it tuned for today’s gas or you like to spend a lot of money. There was an interesting article a year or so ago in Hot Rod Magazine. They took a test mule 360 mopar motor that was worth about 400 HP and ran it on today’s 87, 92, and yesterdays 101 and some Avgas. They made pulls with all sorts of changes to timing and found that motor would run on all the gas and make power, but it did make the most power on the 101 and Avgas/race fuel. Proves that the old gas was much more explosive and produced many more “joules” of energy. Whew, sound like a professor now….. Not!!!!

I have run many a modified engine and many stock ones. I find that most motors like a bit more initial timing than stock specs. But again you have to keep the total in the 36 to 38 range. Arlie had a cool link on how a stock Ford distributor can shorten up the mechanical and let you run more initial. Every car will react differently. Fine tuning is the key. There is no need to run spend money on half an half today’s and high octane gas AVgas. You can tune it to run fine. My GT/CS, 428 Cobra Jet 1957 Wagon, and 13 to one 289 in a 67 Fastback run great on today’s 91 premium. Would they go faster on the old stuff if tuned? Absolutely!!!

By the way, a great article on the new “corn” fuel is in this months “Mustang and Fords”. You want to go fast??? This is the new stuff that burns even more powerful that gas!!! I am waiting for it to come to my local gas station!! Tune it to run on this stuff and YAAAAAAA BAAAABBBBEEEE!!!

Rob
hey rob so your saying your 289 has 13:1 compression and you run it on 92 octane? that blows me away...the first 347 stroker project for my car...we took the original cast iron block, bored and stroked it, had a cast crank, h-beam rods and keith black (10:1) hypereutectic pistons...we were re-using the cast iron cylinder heads but we modified them by installing unleaded valve seats, threaded rocker arm studs, had the exhaust ports ported and polished and we milled the heads .025" for what we calculated was 11.0:1 compression ratio taking into account the compressed gasket thickness and deck height clearance and valve relief in the pistons and of course the combustion chamber cc's(56)....anyways....the cam we were running on that car was hydraulic flat tappet with .480" lift for intake and exhaust and 230 degrees duration at .05" lift for both the intake and exhaust...was also running msd pro-billet distributor and edlebrock performer rpm manifold with a holley 670 street avenger carb...had hooker super comp. headers on it and flowmaster exhaust...

i remember buying NOS black can octane booster and i had a msd timing module mounted on the shifter so i could retard the timing when i heard pinging...(the point)--i detonated the hell out of that motor...when we built the new motor we used aluminum heads and a more radical cam .544" lift intake .560" lift exhaust 232 deg dur at .05" lift intake and 242 deg dur at .05" lift exhaust with 110 degrees lobe seperation...but we built this motor to around 10:1---10.5:1 compression somewhere around there....the guys at B&D considerd 11:1 compression too high to run California 91 octane fuel....CA 91 is much worse than 92 octane in other states is what they tell me...it was shocking to me to hear that you run a 13:1 compr ratio 289 on 92 octane....you run your intial timing at 16 on that car? and you have a total of 40 degres at 3000rpm? have you run your car with a wide-band air fuel meter? if so what were your air-fuel ratio #s? and you must have aluminum heads on that car, right?

a tuner at B&D said that my previous engine pinged so horrible...partially because of that cam i had in there...he spoke of the overlap issue and it is a little over my head, but im guessing that .480" lift cam with 280 degrees advertise duration and 230 degrees at .05" duration just wasnt a good cam design as far as the overlap bleeding off low rpm compression for that particular 347 with those components? i dont recall the lobe seperation on that cam...what cam do you have in your 13:1 289?

thanks,
David
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Old 07/16/2007, 07:27 PM   #11
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David,
Don’t want to take over this thread on our cars but.

Deck height at max height. 12.5 to 1 forged pop-ups. Old school 69 351 Windsor castings. 2.02 and 1.60 valves. Been to Dave Bliss in the Northwest twice. Extreme porting on the exhaust/intake side and port matched to my Weber manifold with 48 IDA’s. Guide castings completely removed in the ports. Done a long time ago before the availability of Aluminum heads. Heads decked nearly .060 and combustion chamber build and reconfiguration to bring the heads into the 52 CC range all chambers. Steel shim caskets with minimum crush. Estimated to be in the 13 to 1 range. More than 12.5 to 1 but maybe in between. Old school Hipo rods with ARP throughout. Shot peened ect. Windage tray and so on. Assembled by myself.

When I ordered the Webers from Inglese I special order a solid roller for it. Cam Techniques designed the cam for my 2.78 toploader and 4:11 gears. Told them I wanted engine to be all it could be between 0 and 7,500 RPM, which is the MSD chip limit. Been against it many a time. Mallory Unilight set at 18 degrees initial with 38 to 40 total. No vac advance. Pulls like a big block and makes power from 1,800 up. Like a water faucet through the power band.

Cam is .547 on both valves. .130 clearance between the exhaust and the piston. 107 degree lobe separation. 280/280 advertised and .242 duration at .050. But remember how steep a solid roller ramp is. Amazing quick lift. Totally different profile than a flat tappet or even a hydraulic roller. Lazy, missy sounding idle at 1,200 RPM. Still develops enough vacuum to run power brakes. Totally streetable. Pulls away from a light with no effort at all. Certainly the gears help. Sounds like a Maserati at full chat!!

Stock Ford starter rolls engine very easy. There is little cranking compression in comparison to a stock motor. About 130 all cylinders. Part of the effect of the overlap and steep ramps. The effect of large cams with lots of duration seems to reduce the effect of pinging. Must be the slow build of compression as RPM increases.

I had a stock “J” code motor with the 48 cc heads and a stock cam. What a bear to run on today’s gas. Don’t talk about Cleveland engines. Ping city…

Got a pic or two in my gallery of the engine and the car. Builds RPM like a motorcycle. Has not been on the track. It will run away and hide from my Cobra Jet Wagon with 2,500 stall and 3:70’s. Cobra Jet has been cammed and all roller valve train. Sidewinder intake port matched.

Not sure if it is as fast as yours but it is somewhere in the 12’s. Years ago I had a dual quad 428 in it and it ran 11.98’s at 117 mph. Not sure if it is that fast but it isn’t far off. Hard to tell

Rob
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Old 07/16/2007, 07:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Special View Post
Thanks Rob for the insightful comments. There are indeed alot of wives tales and admittedly, that's all I have to go on sometimes until educated otherwise.
Your "backing" with experience and research is refreshing. 'Curious now of your opinions re: best lubrication/ motor oils... Perhaps on another thread. As I'm more in the "Sunday driver" category, I'm always looking for the best maintenance and preservation methods.
Always been a Castrol man. Run syntech in my cars. Royal Purple and Red Line make the stuff now days.

Mustang and Fords and Dave Bliss a local builder of engines in the Northwest did some dyno pulls with all conditions the same and only changing the oil. Dave's was an engine only and at the crank it developed 7 horsepower more on a 2,300 CC Ford motor for an Indy "light" car. Purely in reduction of friction! Less friction, less wear.

The Mustang and Ford article took a 64 comet with a 347-stroker and manual trans and posi rear end. Drained all the petroleum products out of all and replaced with synthetics Royal Purple. Can't remember the number but a significant increase on a rear wheel dyno.

Most cars normally operated will go for years on just regular old oil. Keep it clean and you are good to go. Most of us are lucky to put 10k on a car in 10 years. But if you want that extra pampering and wear protection…. Only takes a bunch of money.

Rob
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Old 07/17/2007, 04:55 AM   #13
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great thread guys - thanks a bunch

68 J/R code special - 2007 Turbo Territory - Mercedes CLK 2008
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Old 07/17/2007, 07:30 AM   #14
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Thanks Rob for the confirming info. I've been using Mobil 1 15/50 Syn on all except the std. 68 coupe which has 183K miles on original 289 and for the moment bears the nickname "Ole Smokey ;-) She blows a big cloud on start-up (guides I'm sure) but otherwise runs great...

Yes GTB - informative thread indeed!

Tim
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Old 07/17/2007, 09:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert campbell View Post
David,
Don’t want to take over this thread on our cars but.

Deck height at max height. 12.5 to 1 forged pop-ups. Old school 69 351 Windsor castings. 2.02 and 1.60 valves. Been to Dave Bliss in the Northwest twice. Extreme porting on the exhaust/intake side and port matched to my Weber manifold with 48 IDA’s. Guide castings completely removed in the ports. Done a long time ago before the availability of Aluminum heads. Heads decked nearly .060 and combustion chamber build and reconfiguration to bring the heads into the 52 CC range all chambers. Steel shim caskets with minimum crush. Estimated to be in the 13 to 1 range. More than 12.5 to 1 but maybe in between. Old school Hipo rods with ARP throughout. Shot peened ect. Windage tray and so on. Assembled by myself.

When I ordered the Webers from Inglese I special order a solid roller for it. Cam Techniques designed the cam for my 2.78 toploader and 4:11 gears. Told them I wanted engine to be all it could be between 0 and 7,500 RPM, which is the MSD chip limit. Been against it many a time. Mallory Unilight set at 18 degrees initial with 38 to 40 total. No vac advance. Pulls like a big block and makes power from 1,800 up. Like a water faucet through the power band.

Cam is .547 on both valves. .130 clearance between the exhaust and the piston. 107 degree lobe separation. 280/280 advertised and .242 duration at .050. But remember how steep a solid roller ramp is. Amazing quick lift. Totally different profile than a flat tappet or even a hydraulic roller. Lazy, missy sounding idle at 1,200 RPM. Still develops enough vacuum to run power brakes. Totally streetable. Pulls away from a light with no effort at all. Certainly the gears help. Sounds like a Maserati at full chat!!

Stock Ford starter rolls engine very easy. There is little cranking compression in comparison to a stock motor. About 130 all cylinders. Part of the effect of the overlap and steep ramps. The effect of large cams with lots of duration seems to reduce the effect of pinging. Must be the slow build of compression as RPM increases.

I had a stock “J” code motor with the 48 cc heads and a stock cam. What a bear to run on today’s gas. Don’t talk about Cleveland engines. Ping city…

Got a pic or two in my gallery of the engine and the car. Builds RPM like a motorcycle. Has not been on the track. It will run away and hide from my Cobra Jet Wagon with 2,500 stall and 3:70’s. Cobra Jet has been cammed and all roller valve train. Sidewinder intake port matched.

Not sure if it is as fast as yours but it is somewhere in the 12’s. Years ago I had a dual quad 428 in it and it ran 11.98’s at 117 mph. Not sure if it is that fast but it isn’t far off. Hard to tell

Rob
that 13:1 289 sounds more powerful than my 347...thanks for the info...so that monster doesnt even have aluminum heads and you can run it on 91 or 92 octane? crazy world haha i like the fact that your range is from 1800 to 7500 rpm....with my torque converter i dont see anything below 3000 and i max out at 6500...but then again a stroker is not about high rpms...im thinking if i do it again...i'll want a high compression 289 that can rev to 7500 too...but for now...i can go a little bigger on my cam if necessary to hit 11.99
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